structural engineer charles pegelow

Chief Palmer was on the very lowest level of the impact area to have fires. NIST said it had "only light fire activity", so what he said conflicts in no way with the official story (http://www.911myths.com/html/no_wtc2_inferno_.html). The videos and books that claim otherwise are being deceptive.

Nonetheless, if the tower was as blistering an inferno as it was, causing steel to fail and concrete to pulverize, Palmer wouldn't have made it to the 78th floor. He also claimed that he would be able to put it out, implying that afterwords, the 79th-110th floors would be tackled. None of the firefighters whose tapes have been released within the past year indicated any panic of an imminent collapse.
 
The jet fuel was mostly gone in the massive fireballs outside the buildings; my high school chemistry taught how an emanation of black smoke means it's a cool, oxygen-hungry fire.

There is no rule that says “black smoke = oxygen starved fire”. Sure, in some cases (such as a wood fire) this may be the case. But in the World Trade Center there was far more than wood burning. We had plastic products (computers), paper, carpet, desks, jet fuel and other items you would expect to see in an office building, all burning. The equation that you present us (black smoke = oxygen hungry fire) is highly simplistic and fails to take into account what might actually be burning in the towers.

Take for example this quote from a Health and Saftey paper.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/hsl_pdf/2004/hsl0414.pdf

“Large fires involving plastics produce copious quantities of black smoke, such smoke is likely to be more toxic than smoke from a fire involving wood, and would render escape and fire fighting very difficult.”
Furthermore,
An experienced Fire Investigator John J Lentini tells us that smoke color means absolutely nothing.
http://www.atslab.com/fire/PDF/IndicatorsOfTrouble.pdf

“While it is true that flammable liquids produce black smoke, so does any petroleum-based product. The color of the initial flame and smoke might have been important in the 1940s and 1950s when our furniture was made of cotton and wood, but most furniture today is made of nylon, polyester, and polyurethane. Even wood fires, deprived of oxygen, will produce black smoke. According to NFPA 921, Paragraph 3.6:

“Smoke color is not necessarily an indicator of what is burning. While wood smoke from a well ventilated or fuel controlled wood fire is light colored or gray, the same fuel under low-oxygen conditions, or ventilation-controlled conditions in a post-flashover fire can be quite dark or black. Black smoke can also be produced by the burning of other materials including most plastics or ignitable liquids.”

Light smoke may indicate that there are no petroleum products burning. Black smoke indicates nothing meaningful.”
So there you have it, smoke color means nothing. In fact, the heat of the fire itself can also determine the smoke color.
http://www.slate.com/id/2145891/

“The type of fuel and how hot it's burning. In general, a hotter fire will convert more fuel into elemental carbon, which forms into tiny particles that absorb light and appear in the sky as black smoke.”

Again, there is no scientic law that “black smoke = oxygen starved fire”. This also applies to “lots of smoke = oxygen starved fire”.

If you've already looked at all the "twoofer" evidence... How do you explain Chief Palmer, at the 78th floor, saying that they would be able to knock out the fire with two lines?
What you have failed to do here is distinguish between the fires on the 78th floor, and the fires in the rest of the building.

Our heroic firefighter, Orio J Palmer, was undoubtedly correct in saying that there were only two isolated pockets of fire on the 78th floor. This acutally fits with the NIST WTC Fire Recreation report. As we can see, there are only two isolated pockets of fire.

External Image
http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/db_images/db_Floor781.jpg

But now let's look at some other floors. Such as the 82nd and 83rd floors of Tower 2 (the tower Palmer was in).

External Image
http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/db_images/db_Floor821.jpg

External Image
http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/db_images/db_Floor831.jpg

You have implied that all the fires could have been taken down with two lines and were therefore not as large as we are lead to believe. That would be taking Mr Palmer's quote out of context. He said it would take two lines to knock down the pockets of fire on the 78th floor. As we can see, much more would have been needed for the higher floors of the impact zone.

To assume that the bulk of the fires were located on the lowest section of the impact point is just ignorant.
 
Oxygen-starved fires that aren't very hot?

1253245c053b777b1c.jpg
 
You're right, in the US people don't get sent to prison for their opinions, they simply get ostracized, and in some cases, fired (Kevin Ryan). Dan Rather, on 9/11, remarked that all 3 buildings came down just like controlled demolition, and later he admitted, in an interview, that he and every other leading journalist was afraid to ask the "toughest of the tough" questions for fear of being branded unpatriotic.

Galileo was proven correct *with time.* There were those who knew he was correct all along, but they were the minority.

You have no evidence to assert that Pegelow, a structural engineer, is 100% wrong.

Kevin Ryan was fired because he spoke on behalf of his employer without permission, they had every right to fire him. It remains to be seen whether his case against UL will even see a courtroom....Dan Rather did not get fired for his opinions on 9/11.

Assuming 9/11 conspiracy theories eventually get proven "with time", what kind of time frame are you expecting? When will the first whistleblowers start coming forward? When Bush and his neocon cabal is booted in '08? 10 years? 20 yrs? 40 yrs?
 
Nonetheless, if the tower was as blistering an inferno as it was, causing steel to fail and concrete to pulverize, Palmer wouldn't have made it to the 78th floor. He also claimed that he would be able to put it out, implying that afterwords, the 79th-110th floors would be tackled. None of the firefighters whose tapes have been released within the past year indicated any panic of an imminent collapse.
:rolleyes:

To quote Linus Pauling, this is not even wrong!

Really, check your facts, do it!!!!
(And don't forget the real-world fact that events progress in time ...)
 
Nonetheless, if the tower was as blistering an inferno as it was, causing steel to fail and concrete to pulverize, Palmer wouldn't have made it to the 78th floor.
and why is that? you do know that fires tend to go up easier than down

He also claimed that he would be able to put it out, implying that afterwords, the 79th-110th floors would be tackled.
where di dhe imply that?
 
Because I don't think he or the other firefighters would put out just the 78th floor fire and then leave.
or maybe he was more concerned with taking care of the problem at hand before worrying about what might be on the floors above him (that he hadnt seen and had no clue what to expect)

IIRC thats how firefighters operate, concentrate on one area, make sure the fire is completely out (so it doesnt flare up again later) then move on
 
Because I don't think he or the other firefighters would put out just the 78th floor fire and then leave.

How, do you think, could he assess the fires on the 79th to 110th floors...from the 78th floor?
 
Not above the flame zone.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, petroleum fueled fires give off black smoke? An what do aircraft engines run on? They run off of Jet A, which was stored at the terminal below...

http://www.buncefieldinvestigation.gov.uk/images/gallery/casu02big.jpg
http://www.buncefieldinvestigation.gov.uk/images/gallery/casu03big.jpg
http://www.buncefieldinvestigation.gov.uk/images/gallery/casu04big.jpg
http://images.scotsman.com/2005/12/12/12fuelb.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/in_pictures_buncefield_fuel_depot_blast/img/3.jpg

This was Europe's worst peacetime fire in history and it burned for several days. Do a little research before you decide to parrot your uninformed CT bretheren..
 
Nonetheless, if the tower was as blistering an inferno as it was, causing steel to fail and concrete to pulverize, Palmer wouldn't have made it to the 78th floor.
No-one said the fire caused concrete to pulverise. And if you know of a mechanism where fires in floors 80-82, say, would stop people ascending in the stairwells up to 78, then please explain it. Otherwise just be honest enough to admit that you've been fooled by a false argument, and the "no inferno on Floor 78" claim means nothing.

He also claimed that he would be able to put it out, implying that afterwords, the 79th-110th floors would be tackled.
Of course he'd expect to move on to those. However, he had no idea how bad they were because he hadn't reached them yet.

None of the firefighters whose tapes have been released within the past year indicated any panic of an imminent collapse.
Because they were inside the buildings. Some of those outside, who could see the tilt, the bowing walls, believed a collapse was possible.
 
The Pegelow "paper" is very weak and even lacks clear structure.
(I have the impression that he hasn't read the NIST-report, but that is just an impression.)

Some easy points, that even I can debunk:

Comments on Some of NIST's FAQs

by Charles Pegelow

5. Why were two distinct spikes--one for each tower--seen in seismic records before the towers collapsed? Isn't this indicative of an explosion occurring in each tower?
These spikes don't exist.
Read here (it's a conspiracy site :)).

6. How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)--speeds that approximate that of a ball dropped from similar height in a vacuum (with no air resistance)?
They couldn't, and they didn't.
Read here (same conspiracy site).

10. Why were people seen in the gaps left by the plane impacts if the heat from the fires behind them was so excessive?
The heat of the fire was not uniform in time and in location.
The NIST-report contains diagrams showing the temperature as a function of time and location. They are perfectly compatible with the picture of Edna Cintron in the gap op WTC 1.

14. Why is the NIST investigation of the collapse of WTC 7 (the 47-story office building that collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, hours after the towers) taking so long to complete? Is a controlled demolition hypothesis being considered to explain the collapse?
Because they do a thorough investigation. If they had done it quickly, CTist would have complained that the results were pre-determined.
And yes, they will examine the CD-hypothesis, altough there is 100% certainty that no explosives were used.
 
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I still see more smoke than fire in that picture. Also, you presented a very zoomed-in photo. And you expect me to believe that THAT localized fire caused the entire building to pulverize at near free-fall speed after burning for one hour?

WTC1latefires.jpg


A zoomed out photograph for you.
 
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Thanks. That just confirms my point all the more so. A localized fire with much smoke, all within the top portion of the building.

I'll say it again: You expect me to believe that THAT's what was responsible for a complete, near free-fall collapse?

The poster who mentioned other steel structures destroyed by fire: Yes, other steel buildings have burned a long time, making the structure sag enough that it was later decided to demolish the building. In that respect they have been "destroyed by fire." Show me another building that was destroyed like WTCs 1,2, and 7 by fire.
 
Kameelyun - Please respond to my post above. Post #43

In that respect they have been "destroyed by fire." Show me another building that was destroyed like WTCs 1,2, and 7 by fire.
Show me another building fire where the building:
(Edited for context - http://www.debunking911.com/firsttime.htm)

1) Is a steel frame building at least 40 stories high
2) Takes up a whole city block
3) And is a "Tube in a tube" design
4) Which came off its core columns at the bottom floors (Earthquake, fire, whatever - WTC 7)
5) Which was struck by another building or airliner and had structural damage as a result.
6) And weakened by fire for over 6 hours (WTC7)
7) And had trusses that were bolted on with two 5/8" bolts.
 
Thanks. That just confirms my point all the more so. A localized fire with much smoke, all within the top portion of the building.

I'll say it again: You expect me to believe that THAT's what was responsible for a complete, near free-fall collapse?

The poster who mentioned other steel structures destroyed by fire: Yes, other steel buildings have burned a long time, making the structure sag enough that it was later decided to demolish the building. In that respect they have been "destroyed by fire." Show me another building that was destroyed like WTCs 1,2, and 7 by fire.

I don't expect you to believe anything that is said to you on this forum. You have already made up your mind and nothing that is said to you here will change it.

The towers, each of them had planes flown into them at high speed. The damage to the external columns was immense. The planes ploughed through the building and the fuel from the planes exploded in a massive fireball. What remained of the supports had to still hold the static weight. It had to be redistributed. It was clearly redistributed in a random fashion due to the random damage. Other supports were subject to over stress during this redistribution, which in turn would have failed.The fires caused the floor trussed to sag, which in turn put extra stress on the external columns and caused them to buckle. They eventually failed.

The fires accelerated this entire process to the point whereby the remaining supports could no longer bare the static load and it became dynamic.

This dynamic load fell where it could, onto the floor spaces that braced the external columns to the internal core. The floor spaces simply collapsed under a load they were never designed to take. They were literally pulled away from the external columns that peeled away. They were violently ripped away from the internal core; which remained standing momentarily and then collapsed.

The dynamic weight when it fell did not fall onto the external supports or the internal core. It fell onto the floor trusses.

You could always show me a steel frame building that has been subject to the treatment that was dished out to WTC 1 and 2 and stood.

Equally so you could put forward your theory on the controlled demolition of these building and how much explosives it would have taken to produce the same effects as a gravity driven collapse.
 
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I'll say it again: You expect me to believe that THAT's what was responsible for a complete, near free-fall collapse?

I for one don't care what you beleive. The vast, vast majority of relevant experts in the world understand that a fire such as that is more than capable of destroying buildings. Especially in light of the fact that the building in question also had impact damage.

The poster who mentioned other steel structures destroyed by fire: Yes, other steel buildings have burned a long time, making the structure sag enough that it was later decided to demolish the building. In that respect they have been "destroyed by fire." Show me another building that was destroyed like WTCs 1,2, and 7 by fire.

Kader toy factory.
 

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