Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref

Rolfe said:
I agree. It leads to one side dredging up grievance and the other saying "but that's nothing, you're not oppressed enough, get back in your box".

Who says the present international borders are the best possible situation for the world? Who says it's absolutely great for Malta and Ireland and Norway and Estonia and Iceland to be independent, but if any other comparable countries who don't happen to be independent right now aspire to that status this is evil and must be repressed?

Why are large states, arguably too big to be accountable to their populations, to be preferred over smaller ones? Indeed studies have suggested that the sweet spot for a country is between about 3 million and 12 million, large enough for economies of scale but small enough to remain socially cohesive and for the government to be reasonably accountable.

This is all just knee-jerk conservatism, championing the status quo because it's the status quo.

Oh, and this month's "pulling up the ladder behind you" award is shared between Ireland and Estonia, with a dishonourable mention for Norway.
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The current Irish government's disgusting response to events in Catalonia shouldn't surprise anybody. The ruling party in Ireland is Fine Gael, whose political ancestors back in the 1930s formed the Blueshirts and sent volunteers over to fight for Franco in the Spanish Civil War. They've spent years since reinventing themselves as a socially liberal party of law and order, but their authoritarian roots are never far from the surface.
 
Rolfe said:
Citizen of an independent country: "There should be special rules put in place to prevent any other country becoming independent unless I approve of it."

Tired of this.
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Tired of your assumption that majority of Catalans want indepdence from Spain.
That badly flawed referendum is not a good guide to that.
But you seem to have king sized blinders on in reference to this. I don't think it any where near as clear cut as you thing.
 
dudalb said:
Tired of your assumption that majority of Catalans want indepdence from Spain.
That badly flawed referendum is not a good guide to that.
But you seem to have king sized blinders on in reference to this. I don't think it any where near as clear cut as you thing.
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Well, there's one way to find out, isn't there? Let the Catalans have a proper independence referendum, ie, one where the Gardia Civil aren't throwing elderly ladies down flights of stairs and bashing peaceful citizens about the head.
 
Strawberry said:
Well, there's one way to find out, isn't there? Let the Catalans have a proper independence referendum, ie, one where the Gardia Civil aren't throwing elderly ladies down flights of stairs and bashing peaceful citizens about the head.
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This.
 
dudalb said:
Tired of your assumption that majority of Catalans want indepdence from Spain.
That badly flawed referendum is not a good guide to that.
But you seem to have king sized blinders on in reference to this. I don't think it any where near as clear cut as you thing.
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The referendum is the best guide we have. Do you have a better guide?

Not that it's even relevant to the point Rolfe made anyway.
 
I suspect there wasn't a majority in favour of independence as recently as last summer.

Rajoy had two sensible options. He should have said, this referendum has no standing and it means nothing, but go ahead. If he was really confident of a No majority he could have added, and I urge all patriotic Spaniards in Catalonia to vote and show these separatists how badly out of step they are with the majority. If he wasn't entirely confident, he could have added, patriotic Spaniards in Catalonia will boycott this unconstitutional exercise.

With the first option No would probably have won, and he'd have been in a very strong position. Taking the second option would probably have resulted in a majority for Yes, but it would also have allowed him to claim the non-voters and the apathetic for No. Yes probably wouldn't have got over 50% of the entire electorate and again he could have claimed victory from a reasonable position.

If it had gone a bit pear-shaped and Yes got a majority anyway, all he had to do was say "I told you it was unconstitutional and meaningless, go away." He'd still have been no worse off than the present situation.

As it is, I suspect his heavy-handed actions have actually created a Yes majority in Catalonia. Not clever Senor Rajoy. But then I gather he isn't, terribly. He does arrogance better than strategy.

So far the independence movement in Catalonia has been quite heroically restrained in the face of extreme provocation. I only hope they can keep the discipline going forward. Violence from No supporters is clearly going to be ignored by the media and the international community. But let one Yes supporter throw an egg, and see what will happen.
 
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I don't really have a strong opinion on whether Catalonia should be independent. I've only been there twice, for day trips. Seen the Sagrada Familia and the Park Güell and bought a blue rose on the Ramblas and that's about it. Hardly much of a background to understand their politics.

But I'll tell you what. Seeing these good-natured, happy crowds rallying for Yes, seeing these ordinary people flocking out to vote peacefully despite the violence being shown by the Spanish police, seeing them crying with happiness at the independence declaration, and then seeing the swastika-tattooed Hitler-saluting thugs flooding into Barcelona in opposition to them, I know where my sympathies lie. It's very very close to home and I watched George Square live on 19th September 2014. I recognise the characters and it's not pretty.
 
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Rolfe said:
I don't really have a strong opinion on whether Catalonia should be independent. I've only been there twice, for day trips. Seen the Sagrada Familia and the Park Güell and bought a blue rose on the Ramblas and that's about it. Hardly much of a background to understand their politics.

But I'll tell you what. Seeing these good-natured, happy crowds rallying for Yes, seeing these ordinary people flocking out to vote peacefully despite the violence being shown by the Spanish police, seeing them crying with happiness at the independence declaration, and then seeing the swastika-tatooed Hitler-saluting thugs flooding into Barcelona in opposition to them, I know where my sympathies lie. It's very very close to home and I watched George Square live on 19th September 2014. I recognise the characters and it's not pretty.
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Same here. I had no opinion at all on the subject of Catalonia up until I saw the images of police beating people up on the day of the referendum. Its unbelievable how badly the Spanish have handled this, they're actively creating support for an independent Catalonia.
 
The blind opposition to the independence of any aspirational candidate country shown by many in this thread simply intrigues me, on an intellectual level.

Citizens whose country of identity is already independent, ganging up not simply to object to anyone else aspiring to the same happy state, but actively to revile and insult them for the aspiration. Diplomats happy to attend the annual independence celebrations of already-independent states and congratulate their parliaments and heads of state on having that status, all smiles and handshakes, and the next day vilifying independence supporters in aspirational states as Nazis and racists.

Countries who themselves fought for their independence against many of the same forces ranged against Catalonia and Scotland today, and who won through by means which were at the time unconstitutional, now lining up with the big bully states to slam the same door in Catalonia's face.

There's a mindset there that is thoroughly unedifying. I'm not saying posters here are on a par with the swastika tattoos and the Hitler salutes of George Square and the Ramblas, but there is something similar in the outlook. Might is right, the strongest shall prevail, anyone who thinks they can deprive a state of territory it regards as its property is a racist Nazi and so on.

I think it's weird. Sociologically, it's quite fascinating to watch.
 
Rolfe said:
I don't really have a strong opinion on whether Catalonia should be independent. I've only been there twice, for day trips. Seen the Sagrada Familia and the Park Güell and bought a blue rose on the Ramblas and that's about it. Hardly much of a background to understand their politics.

But I'll tell you what. Seeing these good-natured, happy crowds rallying for Yes, seeing these ordinary people flocking out to vote peacefully despite the violence being shown by the Spanish police, seeing them crying with happiness at the independence declaration, and then seeing the swastika-tatooed Hitler-saluting thugs flooding into Barcelona in opposition to them, I know where my sympathies lie. It's very very close to home and I watched George Square live on 19th September 2014. I recognise the characters and it's not pretty.
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Yes - and the Catalan leader has gone to Brussels http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41811649

He was originally invited by Theo Francken - a lovely man indeed and not averse to celebrating a Nazi collaborator's birthday.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Francken

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Francken - French

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Francken - Dutch

It really is the theatre of the absurd.
 
Well, we'll see. But right at the moment the Hitler salutes and the swastika tattoos have been on one side only, and it's not his side.
 
Belgian thought said:
Yes - and the Catalan leader has gone to Brussels http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41811649

He was originally invited by Theo Francken - a lovely man indeed and not averse to celebrating a Nazi collaborator's birthday.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Francken

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Francken - French

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Francken - Dutch

It really is the theatre of the absurd.
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Are you being a little disingenuous here? Was he actually celebrating this man's birthday as a Nazi collaborater, or was he celebrating him as a Flemish nationalist?

The distinction between those two motives on Theo Francken's part is important - for example, when the Indians erect statues of Nehru, are they celebrating a collaborater with Emporer Hirohito or are they celebrating an Indian nationalist? Nehru was, of course, both but the Indians who revere him aren't necessarily cool with both.
 
Rolfe said:
I suspect there wasn't a majority in favour of independence as recently as last summer.

Rajoy had two sensible options. He should have said, this referendum has no standing and it means nothing, but go ahead. If he was really confident of a No majority he could have added, and I urge all patriotic Spaniards in Catalonia to vote and show these separatists how badly out of step they are with the majority. If he wasn't entirely confident, he could have added, patriotic Spaniards in Catalonia will boycott this unconstitutional exercise.

With the first option No would probably have won, and he'd have been in a very strong position. Taking the second option would probably have resulted in a majority for Yes, but it would also have allowed him to claim the non-voters and the apathetic for No. Yes probably wouldn't have got over 50% of the entire electorate and again he could have claimed victory from a reasonable position.

If it had gone a bit pear-shaped and Yes got a majority anyway, all he had to do was say "I told you it was unconstitutional and meaningless, go away." He'd still have been no worse off than the present situation.

As it is, I suspect his heavy-handed actions have actually created a Yes majority in Catalonia.
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That didn't take long. https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/925464523175354368
 
Strawberry said:
The distinction between those two motives on Theo Francken's part is important - for example, when the Indians erect statues of Nehru, are they celebrating a collaborater with Emporer Hirohito or are they celebrating an Indian nationalist? Nehru was, of course, both but the Indians who revere him aren't necessarily cool with both.
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I was under the impression that the majority of Indians - thanks to systemic educational indoctrination - were very cool with those who were in or supported the Japanese puppet Indian National Army, as evidenced by the fact that the government paid pensions to INA veterans, but not to those of the British Indian Army who actually saved the country from being a Japanese plaything.
 
Rolfe said:
Citizen of an independent country: "There should be special rules put in place to prevent any other country becoming independent unless I approve of it."

Tired of this.
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I'm just as much a citizen of an idependent country as anyone living in Catalonia. Spain and Sweden are both independent countries.
 
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