Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref

Giz said:
And Norwegians in 1900, I'm sure.
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Norway had a history as an independent country with their own crown. Catalonia doesn't. We've already been through why the Norway-Sweden union is nothing like Catalonia-Spain. Nice deflection from the point I was making, tho.
 
uke2se said:
Norway had a history as an independent country with their own crown. Catalonia doesn't. We've already been through why the Norway-Sweden union is nothing like Catalonia-Spain. Nice deflection from the point I was making, tho.
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I have already commented on that. I don't agree with you. Here is a description of the Crown of AragonWP
The component realms of the Crown were not united politically except at the level of the king, who ruled over each autonomous polity according to its own laws, raising funds under each tax structure, dealing separately with each Corts or Cortes. Put in contemporary terms, it has sometimes been considered that the different lands of the Crown of Aragon (mainly the Kingdom of Aragon, the Principality of Catalonia and the Kingdom of Valencia) functioned more as a confederation than as a single kingdom. In this sense, the larger Crown of Aragon must not be confused with one of its constituent parts, the Kingdom of Aragon, from which it takes its name.​
You have fallen into the confusion against which this article warns.

ETA See also Principality of CataloniaWP
The Principality of Catalonia (Catalan: Principat de Catalunya, Latin: Principatus Cathaloniæ, Occitan: Principautat de Catalonha, Spanish: Principado de Cataluña) is a historic territory and a medieval and early modern political entity and state in the northeastern Iberian Peninsula, mostly in Spain, with an adjoining portion in southern France. Between the 13th and the 18th centuries it was bordered by the Kingdom of Aragon to the west, the Kingdom of Valencia to the south, the Kingdom of France and the feudal lordship of Andorra to the north and by the Mediterranean sea to the east.​
 
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Borders should be moved/created/destroyed so that they're where the people want them now, not where people wanted them hundreds of years ago.
 
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Rolfe said:
That didn't take long. https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/925464523175354368
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What is becoming abundantly clear to many Catalans today is that Castilians are, as their historic track record indicates, abusive chauvinists who can brook no challenge to their cultural hegemony, and will use force still now, in the 21st century, with the same sadistic glee they did in the last century and before.

One of the flags I will carry if and when the December elections return a majority for independence, as by then the democratic legitimacy of an independent Catalonia will be full and complete. Until now I've largely stayed out of the public fray as a non-voter and non-citizen.
 

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ceptimus said:
Borders should be moved/created/destroyed so that they're where the people want them now, not where people wanted them hundreds of years ago.
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If you seek to know where it is that people want the borders to be; my advice: don't confiscate ballot boxes and arrest election organisers.
 
Craig B said:
If you seek to know where it is that people want the borders to be; my advice: don't confiscate ballot boxes and arrest election organisers.
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Agreed. I think the best path for a group of people to establish a new country or move borders is first for them to organize opinion polls; if the polls show a majority in favor then they should lobby for an official referendum and the terms and date of the referendum should be negotiated and agreed within a reasonable time span - maybe three years. Then the groups supporting the different possible outcomes of the referendum should campaign and present their plans for what happens if their side wins.

Providing that this process remains enshrined in the constitutions of any countries that permit it - and built in to the constitution of any new countries formed as a result - then there's no need to get a perfect border agreed first time around as the process could be invoked again later to adjust the borders of any newly created countries.

I suppose a country could always decide to change its constitution so that the referendum path is no longer legally available - and there's no real way to prevent that happening. Without any constitutionally available process when there is a sufficient demand from the people to move/create/destroy borders some kind of armed conflict unfortunately becomes necessary.
 
Hlafordlaes said:
What is becoming abundantly clear to many Catalans today is that Castilians are, as their historic track record indicates, abusive chauvinists who can brook no challenge to their cultural hegemony, and will use force still now, in the 21st century, with the same sadistic glee they did in the last century and before.

One of the flags I will carry if and when the December elections return a majority for independence, as by then the democratic legitimacy of an independent Catalonia will be full and complete. Until now I've largely stayed out of the public fray as a non-voter and non-citizen.
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This is a frankly racist post. You are attributing particular negative attributes to a collection of people defined by their race.
 
Planigale said:
This is a frankly racist post. You are attributing particular negative attributes to a collection of people defined by their race.
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Not a race, rather a set of beliefs forming part of a culture, largely relating to a historic thread consisting of Catholic absolutism and ethnocentrism. The track record is decidedly one-sided with respect to Catalonia.

The difference is even noticable in language learning skills, something I am well-placed to know. In this case, difficulty in placing oneself in another's shoes or adopting a different perspective slows learning, especially with regard to idiomatic expressions. That there is no simplistic one-to-one literal translation is more an obstacle to one mindset than another, and can be seen in extreme cases as almost a ridiculous affront. This difference, of course, is reflected in objective tests, which in this case I developed and administered myself in the past for use by major institutions.

Try that racist moniker on someone else, dude. Google "central tendencies" and apply the learning. Datasets are not uniform, but they can be indicative.
 
Rolfe said:
Not beating up people trying to vote and threatening people with a beating up if they try to vote is an idea too.

This is worth a read.

https://medium.com/freeman-spogli-i...-shortest-lived-catalan-republic-86b657fb1f3e
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Wow.
In 2006, Rajoy, then leader of the opposition in Congress, dealt a blow to coexistence by attacking the Catalan Statute of Autonomy. [...] After four years, the court ruled against the text, striking entire paragraphs and suppressing articles that were admitted in the statutes of other regions. The resulting bill of rights turned out to be more restrictive than the previous one had been. This undignified behavior by the arbiters of the constitution made a mockery of legal process and set the stage for the present standoff.
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So, in effect, Catalonia enjoys less autonomy than, say, Galicia or Andalusia.
In the last few years, the Constitutional court has repealed twenty-five laws passed by the Catalan Parliament: a law barring utilities companies from cancelling service to the poor; a law on gender equality; one on levying a tax on the energy companies; another on taxing the banks; a law to protect the needy from eviction; a law on social security; one against fracking; another to fund the cultural industries, etc.
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That makes it sound like Catalonia has no de-facto autonomy. For comparison, could our Scottish interlocutors comment whether Holyrood could pass such laws under the current devolution?
Rajoy’s dissolving the Catalan Parliament and calling for snap elections a few days before Christmas opens an uncertain scenario of conflicting legalities. [...] On the other hand, can an imposed, statutorily illegal election be credibly held? How can it even be seriously considered a settlement of the question when the vice-president of the Senate announces that, if pro-independence parties win the election, the Spanish government will invalidate it by re-applying article 155?
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IOW, Rajoy's answer to the illegal Catalan referendum is to organize illegal elections himself, and then for one of his buddies to say "if we don't like the results, we'll ignore it".
Jordi Sánchez and Jordi Cuixart, pacifist leaders of peaceful demonstrations could not be honestly charged with violent disruption. For this reason, the judge who ordered preventive prison without bail had to turn to the pre-democratic Francoist legislation in order to substantiate her politically motivated decision.
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Seems the PP has not lost its founding Francoist DNA.

In a struggle like this, truth is the first casualty and there's a lot of propaganda from both sides, so skepticism should be applied to any claims. However, the above are cold, objective claims of fact and I don't expect a specialist academic to lie about them.

If only half of the above is true, I'd say that the current Catalan leaders have justified and irreconcilable grievances against Madrid.
 
uke2se said:
Norway had a history as an independent country with their own crown.
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That's a very long way back - before the Kalmar Union of 1389. The wiki page with the list of Norwegian kings has a handy color coding in the first column, which kings were king of an independent Norway or of a union with Denmark and/or Sweden - in which invariably, Denmark or Sweden was the dominant party.

uke2se said:
Catalonia doesn't.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Catalonia:
The counties that would eventually make up the Principality of Catalonia were gradually unified under the rule of the Count of Barcelona. In 1137, the County of Barcelona and the Kingdom of Aragon were unified under a single dynasty, creating what modern historians call the Crown of Aragon; however, Aragon and Catalonia retained their own political structure and legal traditions.
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Hlafordlaes said:
Not a race, rather a set of beliefs forming part of a culture, largely relating to a historic thread consisting of Catholic absolutism and ethnocentrism. The track record is decidedly one-sided with respect to Catalonia.

The difference is even noticable in language learning skills, something I am well-placed to know. In this case, difficulty in placing oneself in another's shoes or adopting a different perspective slows learning, especially with regard to idiomatic expressions. That there is no simplistic one-to-one literal translation is more an obstacle to one mindset than another, and can be seen in extreme cases as almost a ridiculous affront. This difference, of course, is reflected in objective tests, which in this case I developed and administered myself in the past for use by major institutions.

Try that racist moniker on someone else, dude. Google "central tendencies" and apply the learning. Datasets are not uniform, but they can be indicative.
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It is always amusing to see people with prejudices try to prove their prejudices are not really prejudices.
 
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