Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref

[Planigale]

I don't think you really understand what you are talking about either in Scotland or Catalonia.

The SNP won the GE in Scotland and a majority of Catalan voters supported independence in the referendum.

No only about a third of Catalan voters supported independence. Given it was an 'illegal' referendum in this instance it is reasonable to assume the majority of voters who chose not to vote were not supporting independence.

 

[quadraginta]

No only about a third of Catalan voters supported independence. Given it was an 'illegal' referendum in this instance it is reasonable to assume the majority of voters who chose not to vote were not supporting independence.

Why is it not equally reasonable to assume they didn't want to go to the polls because they didn't want to be beaten up by goon squads sent from Madrid?

After all, such fears were certainly shown to be justified.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

For a good time, call Mariano Rajoy at +34-ASS-JAQ-BOOT.

 

[Rolfe]

Why is it not equally reasonable to assume they didn't want to go to the polls because they didn't want to be beaten up by goon squads sent from Madrid?

After all, such fears were certainly shown to be justified.

Even if you assume that all those who "didn't want to go to the polls" were for No, there's still an overall majority for Yes if you count the 700,000 votes that were stolen by Rajoy's goons and assume they broke the same way as the ones that were actually counted.

That's before you account for the known fact that some Yes voters were intimidated away from the polling stations, and some people wouldn't have bothered to vote even if you'd sent a taxi for them with an armed bodyguard and a safe-conduct pass. No poll in a country where voting is not compulsory ever achieves 100% turnout.

 

[Hercules56]

I think the UN should make a new law declaring how and under what conditions an independence movements needs to be recognized by a country.

Popularity of independence, public referendum without foreign influence and intervention, history of persecution, history of nationalist feeling, unique cultural attributes should all be considered.

 

[Belgian thought]

Then why did you say the opposite a handful of posts ago?

Because if there is no oppression, economical or otherwise and, you hold an illegal referendum, the validity of said referendum becomes very weak.

One could argue that hypothetical taxation on Londoners is o/repressive since Londoners benefit less from paying more into the national coffers but, for some reason this is not deemed as a valid reason for its (London) separating.

I would like to know what is?

And, as I was indeed born in Belgium and left many years ago, I have very little understanding of and for that country. As I see it, its independence was based on true colonial "ownership" (and they did perversely the same in Congo). Its current existence is also a mystery apart from it being a great playground for war.

As for some nationalist nut job offering asylum. I am sure he did it from his heart and not political expediency - my arse.

As you can probably tell, I do not have much time for politicians and their ********, how ever "honourable" their ******** might appear.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

No only about a third of Catalan voters supported independence. Given it was an 'illegal' referendum in this instance it is reasonable to assume the majority of voters who chose not to vote were not supporting independence.

No that's simply not true. You are conveniently ignoring the stolen ballots.

 

[Craig B]

Because if there is no oppression, economical or otherwise and, you hold an illegal referendum, the validity of said referendum becomes very weak.

One could argue that hypothetical taxation on Londoners is o/repressive since Londoners benefit less from paying more into the national coffers but, for some reason this is not deemed as a valid reason for its (London) separating.

I would like to know what is?

And, as I was indeed born in Belgium and left many years ago, I have very little understanding of and for that country. As I see it, its independence was based on true colonial "ownership" (and they did perversely the same in Congo). Its current existence is also a mystery apart from it being a great playground for war.

As for some nationalist nut job offering asylum. I am sure he did it from his heart and not political expediency - my arse.

As you can probably tell, I do not have much time for politicians and their ********, how ever "honourable" their ******** might appear.

This is very strange stuff. All the more so, as Belgium came into existence in 1830 by seceding from the United Kingdom of the Netherlands. The modern Netherlands and Belgium were a single kingdom from the end of the Napoleonic War, up to that time. The Netherlands denied that Belgium was oppressed in any way, of course.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Because if there is no oppression, economical or otherwise and, you hold an illegal referendum, the validity of said referendum becomes very weak.

One could argue that hypothetical taxation on Londoners is o/repressive since Londoners benefit less from paying more into the national coffers but, for some reason this is not deemed as a valid reason for its (London) separating.

I would like to know what is?

And, as I was indeed born in Belgium and left many years ago, I have very little understanding of and for that country. As I see it, its independence was based on true colonial "ownership" (and they did perversely the same in Congo). Its current existence is also a mystery apart from it being a great playground for war.

As for some nationalist nut job offering asylum. I am sure he did it from his heart and not political expediency - my arse.

As you can probably tell, I do not have much time for politicians and their ********, how ever "honourable" their ******** might appear.

You seem very confused.

There is nothing wrong with London declaring independence if it wants to. However you said it makes sense.

And given that London's prosperity is based almost entirely on being the capital city of the UK then it would be amazingly counter productive to actually do so.

You said it made sense, then about two posts later agreed that it didn't actually make sense.

You seem to be getting the idea though that it's somewhat ridiculous for any country to somehow dismiss the independence claims of another when they are all simply made up entities.

The UK insists Brexit is the Will of the People(TM) and yet more Catalans voted for independence proportionally and they say that's an illegal nonsense.

The US and others insist its an illegal declaration - exactly as they were founded.

 

[Belgian thought]

Do you know the results of these stolen ballots?

The whole thing was a sham.

Speaking to "Spanish" people, many would like Catalonia to hold a referendum but only if it is legit. The referendum clearly outlining the consequences unlike this one - "Of course we can stay in the EU, of course we can stay in La Liga". Where clearly they were told by both bodies that it was not the case, the EU weeks and months before, La Liga 2015.

It was another €400/week NHS bus lie.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Do you know the results of these stolen ballots?

The whole thing was a sham.

Speaking to "Spanish" people, many would like Catalonia to hold a referendum but only if it is legit. The referendum clearly outlining the consequences unlike this one - "Of course we can stay in the EU, of course we can stay in La Liga". Where clearly they were told by both bodies that it was not the case, the EU weeks and months before, La Liga 2015.

It was another €400/week NHS bus lie.

You think the ballots that were stolen were disproportionately against independence? really????

How do you hold a legit referendum when the central government won't allow it ?

 

[Belgian thought]

This is very strange stuff. All the more so, as Belgium came into existence in 1830 by seceding from the United Kingdom of the Netherlands. The modern Netherlands and Belgium were a single kingdom from the end of the Napoleonic War, up to that time. The Netherlands denied that Belgium was oppressed in any way, of course.

Of course and I do not care and it has no bearing on this Catalonia thing - I have not been to Belgium for years and their history does not interest me one jot. I feel as Belgian as I do Turkish.

I, by birth, am a Walloon, ("Stop it Peakes at the back! - Walloons! Supposedly coming from an abandoned Roman garrison hence the very strange language!.").

Now, were a lot lot of Walloons to want independence I would also call them a bunch of wankers.

We could split every country into its own bits based on history, and by taking it further back, we can again become tribes - which could then be just as justifiable in their cause of independence - in absurdum

I do not want that.

 

[Belgian thought]

You think the ballots that were stolen were disproportionately against independence? really????

How do you hold a legit referendum when the central government won't allow it ?

No idea what the stolen ballot papers were - there is no evidence, just speculation.

This is the problem and yes I think Rajoy acted wrongly and yes there should be an allowed referendum.

But, as I said before, the true consequences of a referendum must be presented to the voters.

In this case it wasn't.

And as I replied earlier, this takes us down the tribal route, something Europe has/had almost done away with amid a lot of bloodshed - a bloodshed over many years.

The rise of nationalism in many countries and not just Spain is, I see it, a result of the last crash but also to the oncoming technological changes which may not guarantee anyone any future.

I mentioned a few posts ago the demographics of the recent illegal Catalan Independence vote were young people and the old - the opposite of Brexit.

The people in Spain have endured, so far, 9 years of incredible hardship and had it not been for the family, there would have been civil disturbances of a massive level.

The Catalonian Independent politicians used this fragile situation to their own benefit and not for a "long term" future.

As companies were leaving Catalonia the recent last weeks their Economic minister continued to say that it is not a problem - when asked to appear before a committee to address this and answer questions before Friday, he refused.

Under Spanish Autonomy rules, you pay your taxes in the region registered. Catalonia has lost a lot of money in the last few weeks - but hey, that is not a problem.

A poster much earlier on from Spain surmised the situation by stating the action of both Madrid (PP) and Catalonia (PDeCAT and others) were diversion tactics against growing corruption issues.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...in-smokescreen-for-other-issues-a7976841.html

Knowing Spain - it makes sense, coz Spain doesn't at the moment.

 

[Rolfe]

Citizen of an independent country: "There should be special rules put in place to prevent any other country becoming independent unless I approve of it."

Tired of this.

 

[applecorped]

True, Spain is tired of it.

 

[Darat]

This is very strange stuff. All the more so, as Belgium came into existence in 1830 by seceding from the United Kingdom of the Netherlands. The modern Netherlands and Belgium were a single kingdom from the end of the Napoleonic War, up to that time. The Netherlands denied that Belgium was oppressed in any way, of course.

The world has changed a lot since 1830.....

 

[John Jones]

I'm far too disgusted with current events to post much on this topic. However, there was a short bit on Euronews (now towing the Madrid line and putting up made-in-Madrid reports exclusively) the other day comparing the Catalan revolt to that of George Wallace in Alabama, nodding in approval of the federal put-down of a jerk.

Except, in that case, as in the US Civil War, autonomy/independence was sought by locals in order to be able to suppress democratic rights and dehumanize opponents, not to protect or enhance the exercise of democracy. That the irony of using an excuse that acts, in the final analysis, as an accusation is not lost on Madrid is full indication of the paucity of its democratic credentials.

This is not 1860 in North America. There is no institutionalized slavery in the Iberian peninsula is there? Well? Is there?

Do you think we need more hyperbole in this thread?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

It seems to be an unspoken presumption that oppressive institutions or abusive practices are necessary prerequisites for deeming any desire to increase autonomy or self-determination to have legitimacy.

Which is both product of and feeds into the "virtuous victim" nonsense that we have quite enough of.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

 

[Rolfe]

I agree. It leads to one side dredging up grievance and the other saying "but that's nothing, you're not oppressed enough, get back in your box".

Who says the present international borders are the best possible situation for the world? Who says it's absolutely great for Malta and Ireland and Norway and Estonia and Iceland to be independent, but if any other comparable countries who don't happen to be independent right now aspire to that status this is evil and must be repressed?

Why are large states, arguably too big to be accountable to their populations, to be preferred over smaller ones? Indeed studies have suggested that the sweet spot for a country is between about 3 million and 12 million, large enough for economies of scale but small enough to remain socially cohesive and for the government to be reasonably accountable.

This is all just knee-jerk conservatism, championing the status quo because it's the status quo.

Oh, and this month's "pulling up the ladder behind you" award is shared between Ireland and Estonia, with a dishonourable mention for Norway.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That is what Madrid should have done. Let them have the referendum,and then announce it had no more legal standing then any other public opinion poll.
instead they overreacted, and now might well be taking the country into Civil War.

Exactly it meant no more than Peurto Rico voting to become a state again. They need to learn from the US and that these annoying polls can be safely ignored.