So there was this female speaker on an elevator

[The Central Scrutinizer]

(Or the third option: Rebecca hates men.).

This one. My data, using a sample size of one, indicates this to be true.

 

[chran]

Wins the thread.

No, the quip about the naked skepchick calendar wins.

/thread

 

[Darat]

This is the part I don't get. We're skeptics, not Juggalos. This was at an atheist conference, not a wet t-shirt contest. Aren't we supposed to value critical thinking and reason and fairness and equality? If you're coming to a skeptic or atheist conference to get laid, you are part of the problem. You're actually part of several problems.

Why? How is that any different to going to such a conference and also engaging in any other social activity, say meeting up with old friends, going for a meal with someone or going to the movies? When I was younger I attended many different conferences throughout the world, I engaged in a lot of business and/or learnt stuff and I got laid as much as I could. You seem to be wanting to impose your views about sex onto how other people should behave.

Now I understand there can be ways that some people find someone "making a pass" at them "creepy", but such an emotional response is not in my mind a rational reason to say it shouldn't happen; there should be an evaluation of whether that "creepy" feeling is based on any facts. So, as someone above said, if there is evidence that being approached in "Manner X" is a sign that you could be at an increased risk of harm then fair enough but to consider that you find something "creepy" as a reason to say it shouldn't happen - well it's just isn't very rational!

The people who are interpreting this as "don't talk to women" are not using their critical thinking faculties. By all means, talk to women, men, Toby, whomever. But do so with respect -- at least at first, until you know each other well enough to establish other rules. If you find someone attractive, great. Go talk to them. Get to know them. Do not assume they are just transportation devices for sex organs. Let them believe you admire their minds or their personalities. (If you don't, then you have other issues to deal with.)
I do not see what's so difficult about that. Didn't we learn that in kindergarten? Did we not figure this out long before the opposite sex got over their cooties?

Sorry but what I read above is simply you expressing your views on what is appropriate behaviour especially in regards to sex. And I totally and utterly disagree with your views about sex. Granted in our society we still carry a lot of baggage in regards to sex because of our predominately religious history but that makes it no more right (or wrong) than anything else religion has come up with. For some of us sex is just part of life and sometimes when you've met someone for the first time all you want to do is to shag them. Sometimes when you've met someone for the first time you want to talk to them, get to know them, run away from them and so on all of which are just as "right" or "wrong" as wanting to shag them.

And to re-iterate if there is evidence that some ways of approaching someone with the intent to have sex with them (only talking about consensual of course) is a good indicator that you are at risk of harm then by all means lets bring that into the open so people can be warned how their behaviour can be badly misinterpreted.

 

[roger]

I personally have never experience sexism at TAM. However, I can't speak for other guys.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Antiquehunter]

This is the part I don't get. We're skeptics, not Juggalos. This was at an atheist conference, not a wet t-shirt contest. Aren't we supposed to value critical thinking and reason and fairness and equality? If you're coming to a skeptic or atheist conference to get laid, you are part of the problem. You're actually part of several problems.

The people who are interpreting this as "don't talk to women" are not using their critical thinking faculties. By all means, talk to women, men, Toby, whomever. But do so with respect -- at least at first, until you know each other well enough to establish other rules. If you find someone attractive, great. Go talk to them. Get to know them. Do not assume they are just transportation devices for sex organs. Let them believe you admire their minds or their personalities. (If you don't, then you have other issues to deal with.)

I do not see what's so difficult about that. Didn't we learn that in kindergarten? Did we not figure this out long before the opposite sex got over their cooties?

I don't disagree. Knowing you socially from a few events, I posit that neither you nor I are directly part of the 'problem' here. (For all the passes I've thrown at Mrs. Ottle, I've always employed the height of decorum and class.) However, I will also say that I've met my fair share of socially awkward / somewhat peculiar people at our conventions. And hooray for somewhat peculiar!

My suspicion, without any evidence, is that the fellow in the elevator is more likely to be a bit quirky, rather than genuinely creepy/nasty. That alcohol & fatigue may have been factors exacerbates the situation. That this fellow did NOT engage Rebecca in conversation at the bar is a bit odd. We don't know if he may or may not have been listening to the conversation, where Rebecca said she was tired & going to bed, and then chose to follow her to the elevator. He engaged in a conversation when they were alone in an elevator - that MAY absolutely be 'creepy' and MAY also just be a very shy person without a lot of experience / success talking to women waiting until what he saw as a quiet moment to engage in conversation.

And that I put forward the above SPECULATION does not mean that I am a rape apologist or anti-feminist - I'm just willing to perhaps cut a little bit of slack, based on my straw poll observations of convention attendees.

The important point has been made loud and clear. Please apply a little common sense when approaching people at conventions, whether simply for coffee, or perhaps for more. Standard 'rules of engagement' apply. We go to skeptical / atheist conventions to engage in lively conversation with like-minded people, not to engage in vitriolic and divisive debate.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

This is the part I don't get. We're skeptics, not Juggalos. This was at an atheist conference, not a wet t-shirt contest. Aren't we supposed to value critical thinking and reason and fairness and equality?

One of my most favorite Skepchicks has a great pair of critical thinking skills.

If you're coming to a skeptic or atheist conference to get laid, you are part of the problem. You're actually part of several problems.

I thought you were my friend.

 

[Phlebas]

I'm sure some women have been assaulted in an elevator, but I'm also sure there are perhaps millions who haven't been insulted. I'm sure you ask someone who escaped a fire what their views on fire safety is and it will be different from those who have never experienced a fire. If this guy was never sexually assaulted on an elevator, and doesn't know or has never met anyone who has, how would he know how she would feel? What about people who have given birth on an elevator? People who have had heart attacks in elevators? People who have been stung by bees in elevators? Are we supposed to know every single circumstance that has ever happened in an elevator so we can know how to act for every single person we meet on an elevator? Are we supposed to have questionaires before getting on elevators so we know what we can and can't do so as not to freak others out?

Jesus.

No, no one is saying that. But you don't know what this attractive stranger next to you has been through. It is creepy to proposition someone in an elevator (or anywhere else, really, but enclosed spaces make it worse) regardless of whether they have been raped in one. FWIW, it is also creepy to release bees in an elevator regardless of whether the other person has been stung in one.

However, some people HAVE been raped in elevators/stairwells/closets/bathrooms and the like. Knowing that, is it unreasonable for a woman alone with a total stranger to be nervous or on guard?

The lengths some of you people are going through to defend a person who (AT BEST) was treating a woman like a piece of meat is remarkable. Also depressing.

 

[Phlebas]

One of my most favorite Skepchicks has a great pair of critical thinking skills.

Sam will be happy to hear that.

I thought you were my friend.

It's nothing personal! I am part of several problems too!

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Luckily, I have learned how to talk to women without creeping them out...

You have? How? I mean....ummmm...I have a friend who wants to know.

 

[WildCat]

If you're coming to a skeptic or atheist conference to get laid, you are part of the problem. You're actually part of several problems.

Is there any evidence at all his guy was at the skeptics conference, as opposed to just hanging out at the bar of the hotel he was staying at?

It seems to me Rebecca is trying to have it both ways, upset because she assumes he heard her talk and then denies the guy was part of any conversation at the bar.

And Rebecca was banned from this very forum because she didn't have the social skills to understand when she was crossing the line, oh the irony!

 

[Seismosaurus]

It's pretty weird to proposition someone the first time you ever speak to them regardless of the location. That was mistake #1.

It's not like he said "Hey, wanna come to my room and have sex?" Whilst propositioning somebody the first time you speak to them is perhaps odd, inviting them to talk to you with a view to propositioning them shortly afterwards is quite common, so I hear.

I don't know your gender

Male.

but one thing I've learned from this and other discussions like it is that women often feel more at a man's mercy than a man does around women.

I'm aware of this. I've had two occasions on which I have frightened women to some extent simply by being around them - both late night in otherwise deserted car parks, where I was walking to my car and a woman happened to be nearby. I felt horrible about it but I could understand it - late night, dark place, nobody about. This I don't really get.

Normally, nothing happens, but the chances of something happening are non-zero.

The chances of being attacked are always non zero. That's the point - if women only want to be approached when the odds are zero, or damn close to it, then the only logical thing for me to do is never to approach them at all. That kinda sucks, at least for me, but it seems to be the way of things.

If you seriously do not get why a woman could feel threatened in a closed space with a stranger who has made it clear that he wants himself some sex, then I don't know what else to say.

Then I guess we're done.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

No, the quip about the naked skepchick calendar wins.

/thread

Sorry, but the "If I see a man on a <x> with a <y>" always trumps everything else. It's a forum meme.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Fixed that for you.

Now that's just downright mean.

 

[Darat]

I totally agree. I would never go to a convention if I can't talk to women -- that would indeed be quite bizarre, as you phrase it. Luckily, I have learned how to talk to women without creeping them out, by avoiding doing things such as, oh I don't know, say propositioning them at first sight in elevators at 4:00 AM. Oddly enough, I've managed to live my life without finding myself doing stuff like that, and all and all it was neither very difficult nor did it put much of a crimp on the conversations I did want to have with women.

It's quite strange, if I had invited someone back to my room for a coffee to carry on a discussion that would be what I would be inviting them back for! But if I wanted sex with them I would have said do you want to come back for sex.

Perhaps a better behaviour to try and change would be the puritanical and hypocritical behaviour society has in regards to sex? In my view that would be a much better way to deal with the feelings of creepiness or uncomfortableness.

So then we could imagine an elevator scenario like this:

Person A: "Hi - I saw you at the bar, do you want to come back to my room for sex?"
Person B: "No thanks."
Person A: "OK, did you hear the talk about X that Y made today, wasn't it interesting?"
Person B: "Yeah really interesting, I found....

And so they have a brief conversation, the elevator gets to Persona B's floor and they turn round and say "Do you want to continue this chat over a coffee?", Person A says "Yes". So they go back to Person's B room and spend the next 4 hours chatting away over a couple of coffees.

That to me is a much better world to live in.

 

[Stellafane]

If this guy had been inclined, he could have easily hit the Stop button and prevented Rebecca from hitting it again...

A female co-worker who developed feelings for me -- feelings that she articulated in very unmistakable terms -- once pushed the Stop button on an elevator we were sharing. Despite the fact I was reasonably sure I could defend myself if things got physical, I freaked. She burst out laughing at the look on my face and then pressed Go. Ever since then I've never felt entirely comfortable riding elevators with a stranger. I can only imagine what it would have been like to be propositioned by someone from whom I couldn't have defended myself. And anyone who can't understand that may be lacking in a certain amount of empathy.

Perhaps as a mental exercise, it might be useful for men to imagine they're sharing an elevator with a stranger who's 6 inches taller than you are and outweighs you by 80 pounds, when he leans forward and says "I find you very interesting, would you like to come back to my room and have a discussion?" Personally, I'd feel quite uncomfortable, however politely he acted after I declined his invitation.

It's not necessarily what happened, but what could have happened -- and how powerless you'd feel to alter the course of events -- that I believe is the issue here. And it wasn't like Rebecca ran from the elevator screaming "Rape!" She just mentioned it more or less in passing as a "Don't do that." Good advice, I think.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Sam will be happy to hear that.

Dammit! I forgot about Sam!

 

[fls]

If I can't just show an alternate possibility, whether or not his intention was to sound like he was propositioning her, it's how it came off. As I've said before; back to your/my place, your/my room, someplace a little more private are universally known as "let's have sex." It's practically an unspoken rule that the whole, getting to know you, part, generally occurs in public and the private part follows if the signals are there. I am sure there are exceptions.

I don't necessarily disagree. I'm just pointing out that someone who wants to get to know her better and is uncomfortable approaching her in a crowd will end up behaving the same way as someone who is using the secret code for sex. Is "don't take this the wrong way" part of the secret code? (I have to ask because I didn't get taught these tricks and still occasionally put my foot in it..how much worse it must be for a guy with this handicap.)

Linda

 

[Lamuella]

1. Approaching someone you haven't spoken to before in a confined space at 4AM and using a pickup line on them is creepy. The person who does so may not realize it is creepy but it doesn't stop it being creepy.

2. There's nothing wrong with telling people not to approach you at 4AM in confined spaces and use a pickup line. There's nothing wrong with saying this to people in general.

Everything after this is people getting offended at people getting offended, catty remarks about 'celebrity' skeptics, a hell of a lot of straw-personning, and some really tedious tastelessness. That's my opinion, anyway.

 

[Humphreys]

Has Rebecca taken into account how hard it is for men to meet women and get dates because the vast majority of the time it expected that the man make the first move? Doing so, for some men, requires a lot of courage, and that's why they can seem "creepy", but still, the ball is most of the time in our court.

It's quite possible this man was harmed far more by the situation than Rebecca, and her reaction may have simply served to humiliate him into never asking a woman out again.

When she says "Guys, don't do it", I think she needs to clarify EXACTLY what it is guys shouldn't do, because it could certainly be read that she is saying "Guys, don't make your attraction and interest in another woman known to her in a public place", which is obviously ridiculous, right?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Is there any evidence at all his guy was at the skeptics conference, as opposed to just hanging out at the bar of the hotel he was staying at?

It seems to me Rebecca is trying to have it both ways, upset because she assumes he heard her talk and then denies the guy was part of any conversation at the bar.

Well, given that he wanted to "continue the conversation", one would assume he heard her lecture.

And Rebecca was banned from this very forum because she didn't have the social skills to understand when she was crossing the line, oh the irony!

Oh no, she had all the social skills required. She knew she was crossing the line and thought it would be funny. And she was right. It was.