So there was this female speaker on an elevator

[Phlebas]

What's wrong with a good sausagefest? Sexist!

It has its place, but some of us crave variety!

 

[sgtbaker]

But quite seriously I've actually worked at the opposite after I saw what "personalities" and the inevitable clashes and falling outs had done to some other extremely popular forums/websites in the past.

Plus of course I'd rather remain in the shadows and ask "What do you want?"

Oh, so you're more like Azrael, in Dogma. You'll pick the winning side after the fallout.

Seriously, though, and I am not trying to keep the discussion going but you got me curious. Could something like this actually divide communities?

 

[Antiquehunter]

Could something like this actually divide communities?

I think it could - I think it may already have!

Look at the heated debate on many of the fora. The discussions here at JREF have been (surprisingly) relatively even-keeled. There are thousands of posts at PZ's blog, on RW's site, on BA's site, the Friendly Atheist - which indicate the foaming-at-the-mouth rabidness certain segments of our 'community' can display.

Dawkins (unfortunately) is alternately being beaten like a ginger-haired stepchild, or being placed on a pedestal and held as being some sort of ubermensch.

I've read suggestions that people should wear stickers saying if they're willing to be approached to be asked for a date or not. (Personally, I prefer going back to the old tried and true gay handkerchief in the back pocket code system). Lots of women saying 'this is why I won't go to a convention'. Lots of men saying 'if I can't talk to women, I'm not going to a convention'.

Its really getting beyond bizarre.

 

[Seismosaurus]

That's just not believable. You can't be that stupid

Oh, I get that this particular set of circumstances creeped this particular woman out. But I don't really get why it would, or how he could possibly have been expected to have known in advance that it would.

To me what he did, as she described it, seemed perfectly polite and reasonable. Even if we assume that an invitation to talk more really meant an invitation to something else, I honestly don't see why it would creep somebody out. The rules for this, if any, seem arcane and difficult to grasp, at least for me. Given that I would be horrified to find that I had made a woman feel that way, not to mention the potential cost of doing so... seems to me like the only thing to do is play it safe.

Indeed it is sad, but it's brave of you to own up to your failings.

Thanks. As Eastwood once said in a movie, a man should know his limitations. I don't know that I'd call it brave, but I am well aware of mine.

 

[Phlebas]

Lots of men saying 'if I can't talk to women, I'm not going to a convention'.

This is the part I don't get. We're skeptics, not Juggalos. This was at an atheist conference, not a wet t-shirt contest. Aren't we supposed to value critical thinking and reason and fairness and equality? If you're coming to a skeptic or atheist conference to get laid, you are part of the problem. You're actually part of several problems.

The people who are interpreting this as "don't talk to women" are not using their critical thinking faculties. By all means, talk to women, men, Toby, whomever. But do so with respect -- at least at first, until you know each other well enough to establish other rules. If you find someone attractive, great. Go talk to them. Get to know them. Do not assume they are just transportation devices for sex organs. Let them believe you admire their minds or their personalities. (If you don't, then you have other issues to deal with.)

I do not see what's so difficult about that. Didn't we learn that in kindergarten? Did we not figure this out long before the opposite sex got over their cooties?

 

[Darat]

Oh, so you're more like Azrael, in Dogma. You'll pick the winning side after the fallout.

Seriously, though, and I am not trying to keep the discussion going but you got me curious. Could something like this actually divide communities?

Can't see why not, it happens all the time in all aspects of social interactions, it's really just human behaviour that all you humans seem to partake in from time to time; the need to group identify and tribalism is sadly very strong in humans!

 

[Phlebas]

Oh, I get that this particular set of circumstances creeped this particular woman out. But I don't really get why it would, or how he could possibly have been expected to have known in advance that it would.

Ask anyone who's been sexually assaulted in an elevator.

 

[cwalner]

Lots of men saying 'if I can't talk to women, I'm not going to a convention'.

Its really getting beyond bizarre.

Truly Bizarre, considering that my take on Rebecca's initial post was that had the guy approached her in the bar and struck up a conversation then, it would not have been an issue at all.

Her complaint was not about him trying to talk to her, but him employing an incredibly clumsy pick-up move (so clumsy she labeled it 'creepy' and bordered on threatening) after she spent the day talking about how that is the very kind of behavior she does not appreciate at conventions.

 

[chran]

Indeed, except what does the fact that Dawkins is an elderly, rich, white guy have to do with anything?

Because MAILE PRIVELEDGHE!1!

 

[fls]

In all fairness, all that we were given is that the guy was doing just what has been advised - get to know someone before making sexual advances. The rest has been filled in by our prurient desires for a sausagefest.

Linda

 

[Seismosaurus]

Ask anyone who's been sexually assaulted in an elevator.

People can be and have been sexually assaulted in pretty much any kind of place. Therefore if it's weird to proposition somebody in places where that happens, it's weird to proposition somebody anywhere.

 

[sgtbaker]

I think it could - I think it may already have!

Look at the heated debate on many of the fora. The discussions here at JREF have been (surprisingly) relatively even-keeled. There are thousands of posts at PZ's blog, on RW's site, on BA's site, the Friendly Atheist - which indicate the foaming-at-the-mouth rabidness certain segments of our 'community' can display.

Dawkins (unfortunately) is alternately being beaten like a ginger-haired stepchild, or being placed on a pedestal and held as being some sort of ubermensch.

I've read suggestions that people should wear stickers saying if they're willing to be approached to be asked for a date or not. (Personally, I prefer going back to the old tried and true gay handkerchief in the back pocket code system). Lots of women saying 'this is why I won't go to a convention'. Lots of men saying 'if I can't talk to women, I'm not going to a convention'.

Its really getting beyond bizarre.

I think people being verbally attacked or idolize for their stance in this is strictly based on how important they hold other people's opinions. I made it clear that I disagreed Dawkin's input, as much as I've disagreed with some posts in either thread on this topic. It doesn't automatically invalidate every thing Dawkins or posters here have ever said before or will ever say again. It's just one opinion on a multifaceted topic.

 

[Starthinker]

Oh, I get that this particular set of circumstances creeped this particular woman out. But I don't really get why it would, or how he could possibly have been expected to have known in advance that it would.

Ask anyone who's been sexually assaulted in an elevator.

I'm sure some women have been assaulted in an elevator, but I'm also sure there are perhaps millions who haven't been insulted. I'm sure you ask someone who escaped a fire what their views on fire safety is and it will be different from those who have never experienced a fire. If this guy was never sexually assaulted on an elevator, and doesn't know or has never met anyone who has, how would he know how she would feel? What about people who have given birth on an elevator? People who have had heart attacks in elevators? People who have been stung by bees in elevators? Are we supposed to know every single circumstance that has ever happened in an elevator so we can know how to act for every single person we meet on an elevator? Are we supposed to have questionaires before getting on elevators so we know what we can and can't do so as not to freak others out?

 

[Stellafane]

Lots of men saying 'if I can't talk to women, I'm not going to a convention'.

I totally agree. I would never go to a convention if I can't talk to women -- that would indeed be quite bizarre, as you phrase it. Luckily, I have learned how to talk to women without creeping them out, by avoiding doing things such as, oh I don't know, say propositioning them at first sight in elevators at 4:00 AM. Oddly enough, I've managed to live my life without finding myself doing stuff like that, and all and all it was neither very difficult nor did it put much of a crimp on the conversations I did want to have with women.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Good lord. The events you people are talking about sound a lot more interesting than what really happened.

I *believe* Rebecca's point, when she brought it up on her video, was essentially that behavior like Elevator Guy's is part of what's keeping women from coming to skeptic/atheist events. Don't proposition women the first time you ever speak to them, especially not in an enclosed place. What is so radical about that? That's not a rabid man-hating stance, that's manners.

If you're going to approach someone, be aware of your surroundings. You don't know the other person's experience, and it's not like people have never been assaulted in an elevator.

Since the guys in the skeptic/atheist groups don't get that, attracting women to these events will remain a struggle. TAM has done a good job at that, but how many others are something other than sausagefests?

Of course, what Rebecca actually did and said has been lost in the ensuing howls of outrage from the (mostly) skeptical men who feel their right to ask for sex is being threatened.

And Richard Dawkins is being a jerk. Yes, nothing violent happened to Rebecca in that elevator. Yes, the guy was probably just awkward/drunk/stupid. But Rebecca could not have known that would be the outcome at the time, and was understandably creeped out. So she said "don't do that." And she's right.

And don't not do it just so we can get more women to come to skeptic events. Don't do it because it's AT BEST impolite, and you may be presenting a threatening profile to someone who doesn't know you or your intentions.

That was it: be aware of how you come across, and treat people with respect.

Of course, Rebecca is an outspoken feminist (thanks to skeptic and atheist men), so everything she says and does is to further her man-hating agenda. And all the people who put their names on the bottom of Stephanie Svan's open letter to Dawkins are just humorless bitches who can't laugh off their own rapes and assaults.

Sheesh.

This. In spades.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

What's wrong with a good sausagefest? Sexist!

Shouldn't that be "homophobe!!!"?

 

[sgtbaker]

In all fairness, all that we were given is that the guy was doing just what has been advised - get to know someone before making sexual advances. The rest has been filled in by our prurient desires for a sausagefest.

Linda

If I can't just show an alternate possibility, whether or not his intention was to sound like he was propositioning her, it's how it came off. As I've said before; back to your/my place, your/my room, someplace a little more private are universally known as "let's have sex." It's practically an unspoken rule that the whole, getting to know you, part, generally occurs in public and the private part follows if the signals are there. I am sure there are exceptions.

 

[Phlebas]

People can be and have been sexually assaulted in pretty much any kind of place. Therefore if it's weird to proposition somebody in places where that happens, it's weird to proposition somebody anywhere.

It's pretty weird to proposition someone the first time you ever speak to them regardless of the location. That was mistake #1.

But let's see... what's different about being a stranger in an elevator versus a crowded bar? One is completely enclosed without a reliable means of escape and no witnesses, the other is a crowded bar. If this guy had been inclined, he could have easily hit the Stop button and prevented Rebecca from hitting it again.

I don't know your gender, but one thing I've learned from this and other discussions like it is that women often feel more at a man's mercy than a man does around women. Normally, nothing happens, but the chances of something happening are non-zero.

If you seriously do not get why a woman could feel threatened in a closed space with a stranger who has made it clear that he wants himself some sex, then I don't know what else to say.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

What you are doing is exactly what she referred to, in her speech as an argument from ignorance; because you don't experience it, it must not be a big occurance.

I personally have never experience sexism at TAM. However, I can't speak for other guys.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

If I see a man on an elevator with a room key . . . .

Wins the thread.