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So there was this female speaker on an elevator

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All the Knights of Chivalry ...
What have I learned? Never post a disagreement with Rebecca Watson. I will pay dearly for the affrontry.
Effrontery? :confused: Thanks for the link, that young lady being called out wrongly is ... well, not well played. :( Has Ms Watson made amends?
I'm sorry she feels sexualized. When is the next naked skepchick calendar coming out?
^^^ Chortled, I did. :)

That still doesn't make creepy behavior a good thing ... Scrut's got a point.
And so,a short parental rant.
RANT!
You stupid girl, we're all pigs! What part don't you get?

The Rules!

1: Take a friend to the bar or club with you.
2: Have a good time.
3: Leave with the friend you came with.
4: If you meet someone really golly cool who values your brain and wants only to talk intelligently about atheism and stuff in his room - get his number and call the next day.
Yep, but try telling kids that these days. You think they'll listen?

Of course, Rebecca ain't a kid, but the sensible things you lay out are good guidelines.
 
Rebecca didn't like someone propositioning her like that. And she told him that when they woke up together the next morning. ;)
 
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I wouldn't call it that since it works both ways. For example if I told you I'm not interested in you and yet you persisted in making sexual advances on me I would consider you to be rude or maybe ignorant.

Quite reasonable.

On the other hand, if you told someone you weren't interested and they took "no" for an answer and did not persist, and if you then made a big fat hairy deal about it, you might be rude yourself.
 
I'm confused as to why this is a gender issue.

Someone very insensitive asked the wrong question at the wrong time. Happens all the time. Let's all get over it.
 
aynsavoy
06.20.2011

"One assumption I am perfectly comfortable making is that, despite Rebecca’s prior assertions to the group that she wanted to go to bed, this individual thought that it would be a good idea to try to change her mind. Even if we decide that he had the best intentions in mind, this decision shows a disregard for Rebecca’s expressed desires.
I wouldn't call it that since it works both ways. For example if I told you I'm not interested in you and yet you persisted in making sexual advances on me I would consider you to be rude or maybe ignorant.

Right. Like I've said previously, one can talk about different circumstances where these distinctions are more obvious. However, since this wasn't a case of someone making persistent sexual advances, it's not clear why this represents hatred of women.

Linda
 
That the message I take away from this is "Don't talk to women, because it might creep them out and if it does, that's the guy's fault."

Kinda sad, but there you go.
 
That the message I take away from this is "Don't talk to women, because it might creep them out and if it does, that's the guy's fault."

Kinda sad, but there you go.
So you're saying that, even though it's exactly what everyone who's commented on the original incident has been emphasizing all along, you still don't get the fact that the issue was not just the fact THAT he did it, but the circumstances and method; WHERE, WHEN, & HOW he did it.

That's just not believable. You can't be that stupid, so your distortion there has to be deliberate.
 
Good lord. The events you people are talking about sound a lot more interesting than what really happened.

I *believe* Rebecca's point, when she brought it up on her video, was essentially that behavior like Elevator Guy's is part of what's keeping women from coming to skeptic/atheist events. Don't proposition women the first time you ever speak to them, especially not in an enclosed place. What is so radical about that? That's not a rabid man-hating stance, that's manners.

If you're going to approach someone, be aware of your surroundings. You don't know the other person's experience, and it's not like people have never been assaulted in an elevator.

Since the guys in the skeptic/atheist groups don't get that, attracting women to these events will remain a struggle. TAM has done a good job at that, but how many others are something other than sausagefests?

Of course, what Rebecca actually did and said has been lost in the ensuing howls of outrage from the (mostly) skeptical men who feel their right to ask for sex is being threatened.

And Richard Dawkins is being a jerk. Yes, nothing violent happened to Rebecca in that elevator. Yes, the guy was probably just awkward/drunk/stupid. But Rebecca could not have known that would be the outcome at the time, and was understandably creeped out. So she said "don't do that." And she's right.

And don't not do it just so we can get more women to come to skeptic events. Don't do it because it's AT BEST impolite, and you may be presenting a threatening profile to someone who doesn't know you or your intentions.

That was it: be aware of how you come across, and treat people with respect.

Of course, Rebecca is an outspoken feminist (thanks to skeptic and atheist men), so everything she says and does is to further her man-hating agenda. And all the people who put their names on the bottom of Stephanie Svan's open letter to Dawkins are just humorless bitches who can't laugh off their own rapes and assaults.

Sheesh.
 
Calling someone out in a public setting without giving someone a chance to respond is out of order. creeping women out by being a letch is out of order.

Now, can we all be pals again and get back to stopping douchebag homeopathists and stuff?
 
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Having met Dawkins once, I consider Rebecca's blog condemning Dawkin's reply to the affair to be undeserved. I've never met a more mild mannered polite proper man than Dawkins.

It doesn't bother me either and I'm a middle class, middle aged, heterosexual white woman. It's hard to believe my being from the age of the sexual revolution in the US and Rebecca being younger is the difference, but maybe that's it.

Maybe I misinterpreted it but to me, it came off as; The skeptic community has some nerve standing behind RD, who uttered a few sentences about a situation where she felt uncomfortable, when there's women who have it far worse. Unless her genitals are being mutilated, don't complain. Really? So by that notion, unless you are being religiously persecuted in a violent manner, don't complain. You don't like the religious dominance in the US, get over it, people are getting their heads cut off in other countries.

Of course groping is disgusting, but I have a hard time believing this is some common behavior. I've been groped a couple times in my lifetime and the atmosphere this happens in is rare, not common.

But as for the other stuff, sheesh, get over yourself. Ignore the fools. There are plenty of men an intellectual woman can have a legit conversation with. They can't all be drooling ignoramuses. I meet with both a skeptic's group and an atheist group. I've never seen anyone objectify women in either group the way Rebecca is describing. And I've been to dozens of professional conferences. I've never had any trouble finding intelligent conversations to participate in.

She said that in the beginning, she thought the attention was kind of fun. What you are doing is exactly what she referred to, in her speech as an argument from ignorance; because you don't experience it, it must not be a big occurance.
In my opinion, bullying is bullying, whether it's through an email or in person, no one should have to tolerate being told that they need to be raped to teach them a lesson. Telling her that she needs to get over herself for addressing it is the same as telling a kid to get over it, when they are addressing bullying issues at school. The behavior is wrong and the person committing the behavior needs to be confronted and told it's wrong. You just don't sit back and tell the victim that it's just how things are, learn to deal with it. If women kept that attitude, we wouldn't have the right to vote.

Is this said unwanted attention really that much different from PZ being accosted regularly by Catholics and certain Christians, Dawkin's by Creationists, Plait by the Moon landing deniers, and Shermer by the 911 CTers?

As I've said before, threats of violence should be addressed, whether it's sexual or asexually physical. However, when someone addresses a point that RD by stating that he needs to get hit by a church bus, it shows ignorance and violent tendencies. When someone says that RW needs to get raped in response to a point she addresses, it shows ignorance, violent tendencies, and an underlying misogyny. Rape, in that context, is a show of dominance, an imbalance of power. It's very similar, if not identical to prison rape. Prison rape is not necessarily about sexual gratification, it's using sex to belittle the victim and prove your dominance. Unlike RD, RW does not need to be eliminated, they simply feel if they **** her hard enough, she will be more obedient.
 
mr. ottle said:
Of course, what Rebecca actually did and said has been lost in the ensuing howls of outrage from the (mostly) skeptical men who feel their right to ask for sex is being threatened.
As is often the case, everything started out reasonably. Rebecca's original remarks were fair and balanced. But now that the skeptic community has its share of celebrities, everything eventually gets blown up into a giant celebrity-fest.

And Richard Dawkins is being a jerk. Yes, nothing violent happened to Rebecca in that elevator. Yes, the guy was probably just awkward/drunk/stupid. But Rebecca could not have known that would be the outcome at the time, and was understandably creeped out. So she said "don't do that." And she's right.
Indeed, except what does the fact that Dawkins is an elderly, rich, white guy have to do with anything?

I'll take a lesson from Rebecca's original request for men to think twice about what they are doing. After that, I'll step out of the way and watch the ensuing shenanigans.

~~ Paul
 
...snip...

Now, can we all be pals again and get back to stopping douchebag homeopathists and stuff?

This. (ETA: And Paul's post above.) It seems to me to be way too much focus on "skeptical personalities" these days by the so-called "skeptical movement/community". Yes I know people have to make a living so that will involve a level of publicity but it really does make me glad that I'm not part of it.
 
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but it really does make me glad that I'm not part of it.

Oh, but you are. Didn't you realize that your role as lord of the JREF forum is exceedingly high-profile? You aren't being harassed by skeptical paparazzi?
 
Oh, but you are. Didn't you realize that your role as lord of the JREF forum is exceedingly high-profile? You aren't being harassed by skeptical paparazzi?

:) But quite seriously I've actually worked at the opposite after I saw what "personalities" and the inevitable clashes and falling outs had done to some other extremely popular forums/websites in the past.

Plus of course I'd rather remain in the shadows and ask "What do you want?"
 
Indeed, except what does the fact that Dawkins is an elderly, rich, white guy have to do with anything?

That question has been asked and answered all over the place. Either you accept the responses or you think Rebecca just said something in anger and frustration. (Or the third option: Rebecca hates men.)

I'll take a lesson from Rebecca's original request for men to think twice about what they are doing. After that, I'll step out of the way and watch the ensuing shenanigans.

Probably the wisest move :) Not something this community has a lot of experience doing...
 
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