So there was this female speaker on an elevator

[Darat]

Gay guys don't have to work as hard. I mean, in college once a girl asked me to come back to her dorm so she could "**** my brains out", and I didn't refuse. But it rarely works the other way around, unless you're a celebrity and/or rich.

I think it's biological, women have far more to lose than men from a casual sexual encounter. Like 9 months of prergnancy followed by 18 years of trying to get child support payments. Birth control is not failproof.

I disagree as I think it is entirely a social construct these days. Now it may be that there were good (in the sense of pragmatic) reasons why our societies developed the stupidity and hypocrisy in regards to sex that we are left with today but they no longer exist. That's why I think a better change to work towards would be changing the stupidity and hypocrisy rather than trying to re-enforce it.

 

[Humphreys]

it could be read that way, but not very easily. Without presuming to speak for anyone else, my impression is that what creeped her out was that he didn't show attraction and interest in a public place, he showed attraction and interest in a confined place with nobody else there. Unless I've read a lot of things wrong, the fault lies in the fact that his approach wasn't in a public place.

Again, not trying to speak for anyone else, but there's a lot of difference in how an approach will make someone feel if you do it in a place with a lot of other people around versus doing it in a place with nobody else there.

Who knows what she meant, unless she has clarified somewhere?

What's acceptable to her? Don't ask her out at all? Don't ask her out when drunk? Don't ask her out at a conference? Don't ask her out in an elevator? Don't talk to her at all in an elevator? Don't get in an elevator with her? Don't ask her for coffee? Don't ask to continue a conversation?

Who knows, we're just not supposed to "do that".

Why was she so uncomfortable, is it because she felt there was a decent chance she was going to get raped or something, because that's pretty sexist on her part if so.

 

[AvalonXQ]

In other news, Watson is now calling for all "true" feminists to boycott Dawkins.

And Watson's status as a bully is still not addressed in either thread.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Absolutely true.

But after saying this, Rebecca went on to say that the other people got it, and thus weren't sexist and misogynist (I don't recall exact phrasing, but that was the gist). Basically saying he was being sexist. All we really know is that he did something very socially awkward. Anyone with Asbergers, say, could have done something similar, or someone with maybe not great social skills and have been up for, say, almost 24 hours. That doesn't make them sexist, it makes them unskilled in certain aspects of human behavior. I think it is very wrong to conflate lack of social skill with misogyny.

Yeah, that's pretty much why I said above that her use of the term "sexualized" was regrettable. It's from the Feminism 101 playbook and has no meaning in the real world.

 

[gnome]

I think I can express at least part of the problem in gender-irrelevant terms.

Whether it was a proposition for sex or an innocent invitation to a private intellectual conversation, it was a request to get more personal. That is something that is bound to cause awkwardness if the other person wants to decline. And what do people want to do when they're in an awkward social situation? They generally want to walk away without causing a scene.

Much easier to do when not confined in an elevator for an extra minute or two--those can be long minutes. Better timing may be just as you exit. It allows the other person to either walk away or display clear body language that they would like to walk away, like taking a few steps.

It makes sense to me that attempts to get more personal are more welcomed (or at least better received without discomfort) in a scenario that allows for an easy decline and exit. It is a subtlety that not everyone will pick up on (took me far too long, myself) but it's good advice.

 

[sgtbaker]

Men always appreciate the getting laid part. Afterwards, he would consider the other questions.

In that case; do you like coffee?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Jesus, you are one of the ones reading WAY too much into this. Where did anyone say that "at best" he was treating her like a piece of meat? That's the big assumption everyone is making. Also, I never, ever said it was unreasonable for a woman to feel nervous, all I'm saying it's unreasonable for a man to predict every single instance in which a woman would feel nervous.

All he did was ask her to his room for coffee. She said no and he went along his merry way. It's sad that he was only probably thinking "Oh, well, it was worth a shot. No harm done." and many people are saying "Oh my damn, she could have been raped!!" So Rebecca felt uncomfortable, that's her right, all I'm saying (and don't read more into it) is that we shouldn't villianize the guy.

But if that guy actually thought for a single second that Rebecca would think that "having coffee in my room at 4:00 am" literally meant having coffee in his room, then he is completely clueless and shouldn't be talking to women any where at any time, or he thought Rebecca was the most gullable person on god's green earth.

 

[Antiquehunter]

In other news, Watson is now calling for all "true" feminists to boycott Dawkins.

Linky?

 

[gnome]

Who knows what she meant, unless she has clarified somewhere?

What's acceptable to her? Don't ask her out at all? Don't ask her out when drunk? Don't ask her out at a conference? Don't ask her out in an elevator? Don't talk to her at all in an elevator? Don't get in an elevator with her? Don't ask her for coffee? Don't ask to continue a conversation?

Who knows, we're just not supposed to "do that".

Why was she so uncomfortable, is it because she felt there was a decent chance she was going to get raped or something, because that's pretty sexist on her part if so.

See above... I agree with others that the sexist/misogynist implications applied are questionable, but I thought it was pretty clear why someone might be uncomfortable in that situation. It doesn't have to be generalized to the extent of your hypotheticals.

 

[roger]

All he did was ask her to his room for coffee.

He did more than that. He also said he found her intellectually interesting (he didn't say 'intellectual' but that is how I read what he said), and wanted to know her better. Far, far, far from treating her like a piece of meat. It's hard to say, but I think he genuinely was trying to express interest in her as a person, not 'hook up'. I could be wrong - it's impossible to parse a single sentence, and of course only Rebecca was there to read the body language.

I just suspect he is very socially inept. I can see him wanting to be alone to say this, recognizing he is inept, and not wanting public humiliation. I can see him not being able to flirt, or otherwise engage in the normal human 'getting to know each other phase, and so just going for the more direct "I find you interesting". I can see him thinking "hmm, she just said she was tired and had to get away from a noisy place, I'll offer a nice quiet place to chat". Woefully inept, yes, but not sexist. Of course, if we find out that he did this to 40 other women that day the calculus changes.

 

[Shaun from Scotland]

This. (ETA: And Paul's post above.) It seems to me to be way too much focus on "skeptical personalities" these days by the so-called "skeptical movement/community". Yes I know people have to make a living so that will involve a level of publicity but it really does make me glad that I'm not part of it.

A good poing Darat. I can't help feel it's the beginning of that clique mentality that has killed many a forum. Its not what you know but who you know. Phil Plaits blog about this is a case in point...

 

[AvalonXQ]

Linky?

No desire to give her the traffic. Here's a quote instead:

So many of you voiced what I had already been thinking: that this person who I always admired for his intelligence and compassion does not care about my experiences as an atheist woman and therefore will no longer be rewarded with my money, my praise, or my attention. I will no longer recommend his books to others, buy them as presents, or buy them for my own library. I will not attend his lectures or recommend that others do the same. There are so many great scientists and thinkers out there that I don’t think my reading list will suffer.

Despite the fact that I’ve seen hundreds of comments from those of you who plan to do the same, I’m sure Dawkins will continue to be stinking rich until the end of his days. But those of us who are humanists and feminists will find new, better voices to promote and inspire, and Dawkins will be left alone to fight the terrible injustice of standing in elevators with gum-chewers.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

In other news, Watson is now calling for all "true" feminists to boycott Dawkins.

And Watson's status as a bully is still not addressed in either thread.

I'm a true feminist, but I won't be boycotting Dawkins. Or Krauss, for that matter.

If she were a bully, I'd address it.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I'm a true feminist, but I won't be boycotting Dawkins. Or Krauss, for that matter.

If she were a bully, I'd address it.

You don't feel her calling out Stef McGraw in her speech was bullying behavior?

 

[Lamuella]

Elevators don't seem like "dangerous places" to me. Well lit, in a place where people use them all the time, the doors could open onto other people at any second - or if you hit stop, it sounds an alarm and is likely to attract immediate attention - many have CCTV cameras, which may or may not be watched and/or recorded. And all the guy did was ask a question in what seemed to be a rather polite manner - "Don't take this the wrong way, but..."

Think of it this way: An elevator isn't particularly big, its doors close quite firmly, and when you're between floors, there's no easy way out and no easy way to get away from someone. If you followed someone into a small room and then closed the door behind you before using what sounded to them like a pick-up line, I would imagine they would feel a lot less safe than if you said word for word the same thing in a room full of people.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

In that case; do you like coffee?

If by "coffee" you mean coffee, the answer is no.

 

[Antiquehunter]

* In reference to RW's quote

Oh my sainted aunt. Attention-whoring at its finest. She's about to share a stage with this man in a week.

Maybe I'll ask RD to autograph my naked skepchick calendar.

 

[AdMan]

But those of us who are humanists and feminists will find new, better voices to promote and inspire, and Dawkins will be left alone to fight the terrible injustice of standing in elevators with gum-chewers.

Jesus! What gives her the idea she can talk for "humanists and feminists"?

 

[latsot]

So how am I supposed to get sex, if I'm not allowed to ask for it?

Perhaps you've come to the wrong forum for help with your particular personality disorder, but how about talking to someone, developing an interest in them that extends beyond their pudenda?

I've found that fairly effective. Make a connection before you ask for sex unless you're certain the person in question is advertising availability for casual sex.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

He did more than that. He also said he found her intellectually interesting (he didn't say 'intellectual' but that is how I read what he said), and wanted to know her better. Far, far, far from treating her like a piece of meat. It's hard to say, but I think he genuinely was trying to express interest in her as a person, not 'hook up'. I could be wrong - it's impossible to parse a single sentence, and of course only Rebecca was there to read the body language.

I just suspect he is very socially inept. I can see him wanting to be alone to say this, recognizing he is inept, and not wanting public humiliation. I can see him not being able to flirt, or otherwise engage in the normal human 'getting to know each other phase, and so just going for the more direct "I find you interesting". I can see him thinking "hmm, she just said she was tired and had to get away from a noisy place, I'll offer a nice quiet place to chat". Woefully inept, yes, but not sexist. Of course, if we find out that he did this to 40 other women that day the calculus changes.

The non-creepy move would have been to say "I found the topic of your speech to be quite fasciniating. If you have a spare few minutes tomorrow, I'd love to talk about it further." Then, if he's lucky, she might have said "We can discuss it now if you'd like".