Simple fluoride question

[kageki]

You said specifically that the evidence that fluoride at the recommended levels is dangerous is"is laid out in the NRC report", now all you have given me are very equivocal quotes from individual scientists. Please show me in the NRC report", where it says what you allege. Because even your "experts" don't say fluoride at the current levels it toxic.

If you want to get into a quote war, I've got hundreds supporting fluoridation.

I have already quoted people supporting fluoridation anyways such as from the CDC. Please do show me something for once.

Those individual scientists are the people on the NRC that wrote the report.

 

[kageki]

And Sodium Fluoride vs. Calcium Fluoride was the topic at hand.

Are you or are you not willing to concede that your "natural" vs. "industrial" argument is without merit?

What would be this argument? All I did was point out that there are different fluoride compounds.

The topic is simply fluoride.

 

[Tomblvd]

I have already quoted people supporting fluoridation anyways such as from the CDC. Please do show me something for once.

Those individual scientists are the people on the NRC that wrote the report.

You said, specifically:

"Again the evidence and everything is laid out in the NRC report."

I don't want minority opinions from contributors to the report, I want what is "laid out in the NRC report" that states that fluoride at recommended levels is dangerous.

 

[Mongrel]

If fluoride is so good for you, why stop at fluoride? Why not put vitamin c in our water for instance?

a) Because vitamin C degrades after contact with air (source, paper)

b) For most required trace minerals and vitamins it's easier to encourage better eating habits and\or fortify common food items. Fluoride is a little harder to come by.

Regarding b) though, why the hating on Fluoride? Your breakfast cereal contains handfuls of added stuff, bread and pasta has added Folic acid and as previously mentioned table salt normally has added idoine. Hell, a load of sweets use citric acid for flavouring should we be running panicked in the streets because we're being "force fed" Vit C?

 

[Tomblvd]

What would be this argument? All I did was point out that there are different fluoride compounds.

The topic is simply fluoride.

No, you stated that "naturally occurring" calcium fluoride was safe, and "artifical" sodium fluoride and fluorsilicates were dangerous.

We are the ones continually pointing out that there is no difference in a fluoride ion whether it comes from calcium fluoride or any other compound.

You keep jumping from free ions to compounds whenever you find yourself in a corner.

 

[Tomblvd]

a) Because vitamin C degrades after contact with air (source, paper)

b) For most required trace minerals and vitamins it's easier to encourage better eating habits and\or fortify common food items. Fluoride is a little harder to come by.

Regarding b) though, why the hating on Fluoride? Your breakfast cereal contains handfuls of added stuff, bread and pasta has added Folic acid and as previously mentioned table salt normally has added idoine. Hell, a load of sweets use citric acid for flavouring should we be running panicked in the streets because we're being "force fed" Vit C?

Pretty much everything you mention has its own fan club extolling the evils of "x", and the conspiracy to cover up said evils. Although many people aviod the confusion any simply rail about anything that isn't "natural". You know, how bad "additives" are for you.

I was about to say it would be a good experiment to set up a website about the dangers of a completely benign substance and see how much traction it would get out in wooville, but I then realized I had been beaten to the punch with the dire warnings about dihydrogen monoxide.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I don't know, don't care and don't understand your point.

The information you need to understand this issue is stuff you would have learned in high school chemistry. Or will learn, as the case may be.

These forums exist partially for the purpose of education, but at the same time it's not reasonable to expect posters here to bring you up to speed on the very basics of aqueous chemistry.

So probably the best answer to your queries is "You're wrong, but you won't understand why until you understand high-school level chemistry". The best solution to your problem is to crack open a textbook and do some learning.

Until you do that we can explain the chemistry to you until we are blue in the face but we won't get anywhere. We'll just keep circling back to "But this article I cannot possibly understand says..." or "this country says".

It's like dealing with someone who is convinced that the quadratic equation is wrong, but who doesn't know anything about algebra. How do you have a conversation with such a person, without either teaching them maths from the ground up or just telling them they must take our word for it that they are wrong?

 

[Tomblvd]

The information you need to understand this issue is stuff you would have learned in high school chemistry. Or will learn, as the case may be.

These forums exist partially for the purpose of education, but at the same time it's not reasonable to expect posters here to bring you up to speed on the very basics of aqueous chemistry.

So probably the best answer to your queries is "You're wrong, but you won't understand why until you understand high-school level chemistry". The best solution to your problem is to crack open a textbook and do some learning.

Until you do that we can explain the chemistry to you until we are blue in the face but we won't get anywhere. We'll just keep circling back to "But this article I cannot possibly understand says..." or "this country says".

It's like dealing with someone who is convinced that the quadratic equation is wrong, but who doesn't know anything about algebra. How do you have a conversation with such a person, without either teaching them maths from the ground up or just telling them they must take our word for it that they are wrong?

I should have bowed out of this thread when I was pointed to this comment by kageki:

"If something is toxic then it's toxic. Why would the amount matter? It's still toxic isn't it? "

If there was ever a comment that screamed "I know absolutely nothing about science!", that was it.

How about it Kageki, you want to revise your remarks?

 

[kageki]

I should have bowed out of this thread when I was pointed to this comment by kageki:

"If something is toxic then it's toxic. Why would the amount matter? It's still toxic isn't it? "

If there was ever a comment that screamed "I know absolutely nothing about science!", that was it.

How about it Kageki, you want to revise your remarks?

Nope.

 

[Tomblvd]

Nope.

Of course not.

So, are iron, iodine, chromium, copper, zinc, and selenium all toxic, or not?

And you are continuing to ignore my other question. Where is it "laid out in the NRC report" that states that fluoride at recommended levels is dangerous?

We're waiting....

 

[Mr.D]

What would be this argument? All I did was point out that there are different fluoride compounds.

No. What you did "point out" was

To set the record straight on this matter, natural fluoride and the fluoride they put in the water is different.

Natural fluoride is called calcium fluoride and the other is called sodium fluoride.

So. Are Calcium Fluoride and Sodium Fluoride "different?"

 

[Tomblvd]

Aaaaaaaaand waiting.....

 

[Old Bob]

Sadly it's to late to convince pro sodium fluoride lovers because it is a neuro-toxin, so all we can do is get our own water and feel sorry for all the little kids. Those responsible should be charged for grievous bodily harm in my opinion.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Sadly it's to late to convince pro sodium fluoride lovers because it is a neuro-toxin, so all we can do is get our own water and feel sorry for all the little kids. Those responsible should be charged for grievous bodily harm in my opinion.

What causes the neurological damage, Old Bob?

Is it the sodium ions, or the fluoride ions?

 

[Tomblvd]

Sadly it's to late to convince pro sodium fluoride lovers because it is a neuro-toxin, so all we can do is get our own water and feel sorry for all the little kids. Those responsible should be charged for grievous bodily harm in my opinion.

It's OK Bob, as kagai already pointed out, water companies mostly use silicofluorides now, so you're safe.

And how about those crazy Europeans? Actually putting that dreaded sodium fluoride in salt?!

 

[Tomblvd]

What causes the neurological damage, Old Bob?

Is it the sodium ions, or the fluoride ions?

During my latest discussions, I was going over some of the usual antifluoridation websites, and they are having a real problem with the "natural" vs "artificial" fluoride.

Most people don't know that many water supplies in the world have fluoride in them naturally. When the find that out, it becomes a lot less scary.

 

[JimBenArm]

I guess I'm doomed. Not only have I been ingesting sodium ions, but chloride to go along with it. Not just from sodium chloride but sodium hypochlorite in small amounts. And now there's fluoride on top of it! GACK! Oh dear god, what am I to do?

Oh, never mind. The fluoride just kicked in, and I'm all mellow now.

 

[Whiplash]

I guess I'm doomed. Not only have I been ingesting sodium ions, but chloride to go along with it. Not just from sodium chloride but sodium hypochlorite in small amounts. And now there's fluoride on top of it! GACK! Oh dear god, what am I to do?

Oh, never mind. The fluoride just kicked in, and I'm all mellow now.

Ya, you say that now.. but just wait till the flashbacks start.

 

[Mr.D]

I guess I'm doomed. Not only have I been ingesting sodium ions, but chloride to go along with it. Not just from sodium chloride but sodium hypochlorite in small amounts

Bleach! Oh noes, the big bad NWO is trying to bleach our brains!

And now that I think about it, back when I worked for a local water board, I saw that the field trucks and construction sites had bottles of household bleach! It wasn't even pharmaceutical grade, the evil bastards!

 

[Without Rights]

Wecome back WR,

I've noticed a couple of things about your posts and am curious.

You repeatedly say that ingested fluoride is unhealthy, but I can't find (maybe my google skills aren't quite up to it) anywhere where you explicitly say that topical fluoride promotes dental health.

I also note that your arguments have been clinical and financial. I don't see any claims of "mind control" or such.

So; for the record, do you believe that topical fluoride is "good?"

and, do you or do you not agree with the radical anti-fluoridationists who claim that fluoridiation is a knowingly and deliberately nefarious (as opposed to a negative consequence of a different motive - ie. 'I want to make money, and don't really care about the consequences')?

Depending on your answers, I may have a followup question.

I brush with fluoride toothpaste daily.

I think perpetrating a scheme where by people are told of a false benefit for ingesting a compound that actually harms them is deliberately nefarious, so yes. If you are asking if I think the Government is intentionally poisoning the population I will say no, but would not rule it out.