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Simple fluoride question

kageki said:
To set the record straight on this matter, natural fluoride and the fluoride they put in the water is different.

Natural fluoride is called calcium fluoride and the other is called sodium fluoride.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_fluoride
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No.

There are many naturally occurring compounds that contian fluoride, and sodium fluoride is not the only compound used to fluoridate water.

Wrong on both counts.

"Fluorides are toxic to humans, however CaF2 is considered relatively harmless due to its extreme insolubility. The situation is analogous to BaSO4, where the toxicity normally associated with Ba2+ is offset by the very low solubility of its sulfate derivative."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_fluoride
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_poisoning

"Sodium fluoride is classed as toxic by both inhalation (of dusts or aerosols) and ingestion.[8] In high enough doses, it has been shown to affect the heart and circulatory system, and the lethal dose for a 70 kg human is estimated at 5–10 g.[5]"
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As pointed out, you are confusing elemental fluoride ions in solution, which is what we are talking about, with fluoride compounds.

Whenever we discuss fluoridated water we are discussing the amount of free fluoride ions in that water, not what compounds it came from. Obviously you would use a compound that easily dissociates.

So the question stands, why are there literally millions of people around the world who drink water with naturally occurring fluoride levels well above the "recommeded" dosage, yet they show none of the symptoms of being poisoned?
 
Mr.D said:
Still focusing on the one thing at a time...



So what would the difference be between pure water with pure Sodium Fluoride added to it to a concentration of 1ppm Fluoride and pure water with pure Calcium Fluoride added to it to a concentration of 1ppm Fluoride?

How does that translate to a difference in municipal water supplies, where there is typically already Calcium and or Sodium in solution?
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Difference is as you say sodium fluoride and calcium fluoride.

I don't understand your second question.
 
Tomblvd said:
No.

There are many naturally occurring compounds that contian fluoride, and sodium fluoride is not the only compound used to fluoridate water.

Wrong on both counts.




As pointed out, you are confusing elemental fluoride ions in solution, which is what we are talking about, with fluoride compounds.

Whenever we discuss fluoridated water we are discussing the amount of free fluoride ions in that water, not what compounds it came from. Obviously you would use a compound that easily dissociates.

So the question stands, why are there literally millions of people around the world who drink water with naturally occurring fluoride levels well above the "recommeded" dosage, yet they show none of the symptoms of being poisoned?
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You are right and I have subsequently clarified and expanded in later posts.

Dental fluorosis is not poisoned, but it's not nothing. Apparently the NRC disagrees with you. You need to start providing sources before you make any more posts.
 
kageki said:
You are right and I have subsequently clarified and expanded in later posts.

Dental fluorosis is not poisoned, but it's not nothing. Apparently the NRC disagrees with you. You need to start providing sources before you make any more posts.
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Source for what?

You didn't answer my question which i will rephrase, why are there literally millions of people around the world who drink water with naturally occurring fluoride levels well above the "recommeded" dosage, yet they show none of the symptoms of being systemically harmed?
 
Tomblvd said:
Source for what?

You didn't answer my question which i will rephrase, why are there literally millions of people around the world who drink water with naturally occurring fluoride levels well above the "recommeded" dosage, yet they show none of the symptoms of being systemically harmed?
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For that.
 
kageki said:
For that.
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I don't get it.

You want proof that people aren't harmed by fluoride?

It seems to me the burden of proof is on you, considering people have been ingesting this alleged "dangerous" substance for millenia.
 
kageki said:
Difference is as you say sodium fluoride and calcium fluoride.
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Sodium Fluoride and Calcium Fluoride both dissociate into their component ions in water. This is basically meant by both compounds being "soluble" in water. The former about 4g / 100g of room temperature water, according to the Wikipedia article you linked to.

Calcium Fluoride has a much lower solubility (Wikipedia says "virtually insoluble, but a quick google yields values ranging from 6 to 16 ppm for room temperature water - a level that could casually be called 'virtually insoluble').

Given that, let's go back to my question: "So what would the difference be between pure water with pure Sodium Fluoride added to it to a concentration of 1ppm Fluoride and pure water with pure Calcium Fluoride added to it to a concentration of 1ppm Fluoride?"
 
Mr.D said:
Sodium Fluoride and Calcium Fluoride both dissociate into their component ions in water. This is basically meant by both compounds being "soluble" in water. The former about 4g / 100g of room temperature water, according to the Wikipedia article you linked to.

Calcium Fluoride has a much lower solubility (Wikipedia says "virtually insoluble, but a quick google yields values ranging from 6 to 16 ppm for room temperature water - a level that could casually be called 'virtually insoluble').

Given that, let's go back to my question: "So what would the difference be between pure water with pure Sodium Fluoride added to it to a concentration of 1ppm Fluoride and pure water with pure Calcium Fluoride added to it to a concentration of 1ppm Fluoride?"
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They can dissociate, but not always. The NRC report says that it also depends on the ph balance of water. Not just temperature.

Difference would be calcium and sodium.
 
kageki said:
Given that, let's go back to my question: "So what would the difference be between pure water with pure Sodium Fluoride added to it to a concentration of 1ppm Fluoride and pure water with pure Calcium Fluoride added to it to a concentration of 1ppm Fluoride?"
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They can dissociate, but not always. The NRC report says that it also depends on the ph balance of water. Not just temperature.
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Can you point me to the page? I can't find any such part of the report in what would seem to be the relevant Chapters 1, 2, 3 or 12. (There is some discussion of pH and flurosilicates in Chapter 2, but nothing on point)

kageki said:
Difference would be calcium and sodium.
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Both of which are perfectly acceptable (and virtually omnipresent, AFAIK) in drinking water in much higher concentrations than would be found in "naturally" fluoridated (via Calcium Fluoride) or artificially (via Sodium Fluoride) water of a few ppm Fluoride.

So again I ask you: What's the difference between the two? If I gave you a set of samples of drinking/tap water from around the country, half of which had Sodium Fluoride added to it and half that did not, do you expect that a lab could differentiate the two? What would they be looking for?
 
Mr.D said:
Can you point me to the page? I can't find any such part of the report in what would seem to be the relevant Chapters 1, 2, 3 or 12. (There is some discussion of pH and flurosilicates in Chapter 2, but nothing on point)



Both of which are perfectly acceptable (and virtually omnipresent, AFAIK) in drinking water in much higher concentrations than would be found in "naturally" fluoridated (via Calcium Fluoride) or artificially (via Sodium Fluoride) water of a few ppm Fluoride.

So again I ask you: What's the difference between the two? If I gave you a set of samples of drinking/tap water from around the country, half of which had Sodium Fluoride added to it and half that did not, do you expect that a lab could differentiate the two? What would they be looking for?
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Perhaps I read it wrong and my statement may not be entirely correct, but here are relevant passages:

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=030910128X&page=53
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=030910128X&page=89
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11571&page=90

Maybe sodium fluoride? You're assuming it will completely dissociate. I am no expert on this matter. You would know more then myself. I defer you to that NRC report. They are the experts.
 
kageki said:
Perhaps I read it wrong and my statement may not be entirely correct, but here are relevant passages:

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=030910128X&page=53
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=030910128X&page=89
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11571&page=90
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Thanks. I'll look at them tomorrow when I have more time.

kageki said:
So again I ask you: What's the difference between the two? If I gave you a set of samples of drinking/tap water from around the country, half of which had Sodium Fluoride added to it and half that did not, do you expect that a lab could differentiate the two? What would they be looking for?
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Maybe sodium fluoride? You're assuming it will completely dissociate.
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And herein lies the crux of the matter:

Suppose I have two glasses of (almost) ordinary tap water. Since this is a thought experiment, I'm going to specify that both volumes of water have precisely zero fluoride.

Both volumes of water have identical amounts dissolved minerals in them - the usual suspects - iron, potassium, lead etc. all in ordinary, safe and uninteresting amounts, except that Glass A has slightly less sodium and slightly more calcium than Glass B.

Now, suppose I add just enough Sodium Fluoride to Glass A and just enough Calcium Fluoride to Glass B (shaken, not stirred! :)) such that each glass ends up identical concentrations of sodium and calcium and precisely X ppm of fluoride (where X is well below the solubility of the parent compounds)

I now measure the amount of non-dissociated Sodium Fluoride in Glass A and come up with some value Y ppb.

What is the amount of non-dissociated Sodium Fluoride that I should expect to find in Glass B?
 
Mr.D said:
Thanks. I'll look at them tomorrow when I have more time.



And herein lies the crux of the matter:

Suppose I have two glasses of (almost) ordinary tap water. Since this is a thought experiment, I'm going to specify that both volumes of water have precisely zero fluoride.

Both volumes of water have identical amounts dissolved minerals in them - the usual suspects - iron, potassium, lead etc. all in ordinary, safe and uninteresting amounts, except that Glass A has slightly less sodium and slightly more calcium than Glass B.

Now, suppose I add just enough Sodium Fluoride to Glass A and just enough Calcium Fluoride to Glass B (shaken, not stirred! :)) such that each glass ends up identical concentrations of sodium and calcium and precisely X ppm of fluoride (where X is well below the solubility of the parent compounds)

I now measure the amount of non-dissociated Sodium Fluoride in Glass A and come up with some value Y ppb.

What is the amount of non-dissociated Sodium Fluoride that I should expect to find in Glass B?
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I don't know, don't care and don't understand your point.

If silicofluorides don't completely dissociate you are screwed. The NRC report is based on fluoride ions. They regulate fluoride ions either way.
 
kageki said:
I don't know, don't care and don't understand your point.
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Unfortunately this means that you lack the tools to understand the NRC report. Which is entirely too bad, since there's some interesting stuff in the first few chapters.

Heck, I might have even slogged through all the biology chapters if you had cared enough to learn what it actually says.
 
Mr.D said:
Unfortunately this means that you lack the tools to understand the NRC report. Which is entirely too bad, since there's some interesting stuff in the first few chapters.

Heck, I might have even slogged through all the biology chapters if you had cared enough to learn what it actually says.
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Why don't you actually spell it out for once?
 
kageki said:
Yes I do. I have shown you proof and source. The NRC report:

http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11571#toc

Sodium fluoride and silicofluorides are dangerous. Yes.
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So your problem isn't with water fluoridation per se, it is with the compounds some municipalities use to attain that level of fluoridation?

If the same water company started adding calcuim fluoride or other naturally occurring fluoride compounds to the water to get the same fluoride level, would that be alright with you?
 
Tomblvd said:
So your problem isn't with water fluoridation per se, it is with the compounds some municipalities use to attain that level of fluoridation?

If the same water company started adding calcuim fluoride or other naturally occurring fluoride compounds to the water to get the same fluoride level, would that be alright with you?
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Sodium fluoride and silicofluorides are dangerous. Yes.

No I don't feel we should be intentionally adding calcium fluoride either.

What other naturally occurring fluoride compound is there? As far as I can tell, when they say naturally occurring fluoride, they are referring to calcium fluoride. It occurs naturally as the mineral fluorspar, which is composed of calcium fluoride.
 
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