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Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

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So, at the risk of beating a dead horse, I'm seeing in this particular track a lot of indentation in the toes, and not a lot of indentation at the ball or metatarsal phalangeal joint. Would you consider this a "red flag"?

My toes aren't particularly long, but I can make impressions deeper than the heel just by clenching them. Last time I looked, my feet aren't fake.

The picture is 90° off, but even so, note the depth and the faint bootprint in the lower right corner. It's a 13" print from the sandbar, made the same night as the thousand or so prints of three individuals beside Blue Creek Mountain Road.

That was a Ryerson operation, BTW, not a Wallace operation before you go trotting out the wooden feet again.

Does anyone else find it kind of sad that it has taken almost 40 YEARS for this piece of evidence to be critically and publicly discussed?

I have no idea what you mean by that. The zoologists had Abbott reconsidering before he ever got back to BC. The road crew, thinking Abbott and Green had finished, wiped out most of the prints while they were waiting for the zoologists to show up from 80 miles away.

I for one thank our new Internet Overlords...

And John Green posts on the Internet. Since you pointed me to the debate with Scott Herriott, I'm sure you know where to find him. I have no doubt he'd make short work of you too.
 
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That been addressed several times. Read Meldrum.
No. No, it hasn't. You saying it has and telling us to read Meldrum (we need to make some kind of catchy 'read Meldrum' jingle) doesn't change it at all. We wouldn't be having this conversation at all if it had been addressed. I think I can qualify an answer to 'read Meldrum':

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'?

I think I found a new sig.
 
Are the those the 'dermals' at the edge of that lunar landscape? That's wild that dermals would imprint themselves on the outside of all that muck. What's really wild is that bigfoot can apparently leave dermal detail without leaving gross morphological detail. Wow.

Time for me to do some forehead slapping.

After all the discussion on the nature of that dry dust, "like volcanic ash", it doesn't occur to you that the ridges around and between the toes might collapse under the weight of the plaster? Green said it wasn't a good cast and wasn't considered important.

I used to do lost wax jewelry casting, and I was always amazed at how much detail plaster would pick up. I'd smooth my waxes to perfection, do the pour, do the burnout, do the centrifuge and then spend hours polishing the scratches and bumps out of the finished product. The plaster would have picked up every tiny imperfection and planted it firmly in the metal.

Sandcasting is crude by comparison, but Williamsburg silversmiths made some awfully detailed candlesticks with it. The method was used for flintlocks as well.

There's not a lot of difference between pouring metal into a sand mold and pouring plaster into a slightly damp print beside a road under construction.
 
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2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'?

I've posted what he said. I'm not going to type out the book for you. The photos aren't really clear enough to show the detail, but we do have photos of both casts posted.

There are a number of other casts from the trackways. The one where prints of two different individuals crossed is in the BC Museum.
 
I stopped posting on Bigfoot Forums when one individual had the audacity to imply that I had somehow engaged in fraud or gross negligence to obtain desiccation ridges on my own test casts.

I assume you mean Melissa? She was unable to duplicate your results following your instructions, 100° water and all.

She's said you seem to be proficient in obtaining the results you want, but I don't think she accused you of fraud.
 
I think it would be maybe arrogant to expect them to come here and explain it to us simps but considering that here is where many of there key findings are shown to be incorrect you'd think it not out of the question.

I sent Jeff Meldrum a link to this board some months ago during Correa's "improbable foot" argument. He answered that on BFF, but as for Bill and Greg's arguments on bear feet and Wallacefeet, they were "simply without merit" and he didn't consider the "other list I post on" (JREF) worth his time.

Jimmy Chilcutt is well aware of Matt's findings without this board. If I were Matt, I would not want him reading it.

None of their key findings have been shown to be incorrect here.

Yes, he's very quiet. I wonder how currently confident he is in his original findings. I wonder if he's ever said to anyone that he needs to re-evaluate them before making his own publishing concerning them.

Did you miss my post on this? In conversation wth Melissa Hovey a couple of months ago he had not changed his opinion on OM or on the Skookum Cast. Evidently tube and DY have failed to impress anyone important.

So, you've got me staring at my hands and unable to find where any of my own dermals make 45 degree turns. The closest thing I can think of is separate ridges joining together but I admit I'm at a loss.

I have one right below the third finger of my left hand.

Try inducing some scarring to see how the edges curl.

The dermals are clear in the center of the "moonscape" I posted. Another thing Chilcutt pointed out is flesh spreading under pressure and cutting under the soil.

Remember the picture in Krantz' book of the cast where the toes did just that?

Ah, I can hear some denialist saying Wallace must have used rubber feet.
 
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I've posted what he said. I'm not going to type out the book for you. The photos aren't really clear enough to show the detail, but we do have photos of both casts posted.

There are a number of other casts from the trackways. The one where prints of two different individuals crossed is in the BC Museum.
I'm not asking you to type the book out for us. All Meldrum, Chilcutt, or anyone has to do to silence everything about dessication ridges is to say 'see these friction ridges, scars, etc on this print? And see how they're the same in this other print?'. Poof! All the doubters got nothing, easy peezy. It's ridiculous that such a simple counter is not made for all to see.

Who cares about other casts from the trackways or two different individuals crossing? Were talking about dermal claims. Show us just two with matching patterns and we're done, Meldrum, Chilcutt win, Tube loses. On what page(s) does Meldrum discuss these matching features? He acknowledges Tube's work and doesn't do the simplest thing to bring it all down? How dumb are we supposed to be?

Bleh, I wash my hands of it. Anyone mentions dermals, I say 'sig'. Someone shows me matching patterns and screw you skeptic guys, I'm back with the footies.
 
I sent Jeff Meldrum a link to this board some months ago during Correa's "improbable foot" argument. He answered that on BFF, but as for Bill and Greg's arguments on bear feet and Wallacefeet, they were "simply without merit" and he didn't consider the "other list I post on" (JREF) worth his time.
How about the easiest question in the world about dermals? Would that be worth his time to silence the doubt?
Jimmy Chilcutt is well aware of Matt's findings without this board. If I were Matt, I would not want him reading it.
Why? Because Jimmy's gotta gun?

Rest of your post- sig.
 
On what page(s) does Meldrum discuss these matching features?

Page 256, as I've mentioned. Even if there were a close up of the area on that cast in the book, it probably wouldn't scan well enough to show the details in question.

He acknowledges Tube's work and doesn't do the simplest thing to bring it all down? How dumb are we supposed to be?

Experiments were done in the lab to test if the features near the center, the flattened area and the concentric rings, were from the pour. Then he talks about another 13" cast with ridges similar to the ones Chilcutt identified as dermal ridges, only fainter, apparently because of settling dust. He says this before he mentions Matt's "challenge" (on page 257). I don't think he knew at the time tube isn't quite the "agnostic" he was painting himself to be and Jeff wasn't setting out to "bring down" the work. He was as interested in anyone in finding out what causes this kind of casting artifact.

Chilcutt acknowledged casting artifacts and showed the difference between the rounded ridges and the flattened ridges in a chalk talk with tube. I posted that picture some time ago. Last I heard, it's all very friendly. If it still is, maybe tube will invite him here.

The Elkins Creek cast has the same kind of faint ridges running down the side of the foot. This cast was taken in a flood plain. So, if these "dessication ridges" are caused by a "wicking effect", i.e. dry soil wicking water away and causing the plaster to set up too quickly in layers, why do these same kind of ridges occur in casts taken in mud? The "touched up" cast from Walla Walla shows this too. It also was in mud, as was the Skookum heel.

Melissa Hovey contacted manufacturers, and they didn't know what would cause this effect. According to them, it doesn't happen.

Most casts don't show dermals merely because the substrate is too coarse. The dermatoglyphics are compelling because only primates have friction skin. Bears do not, and it would be difficult to find matching wood grain. Since photos show toe movement (there are 360 photo from BCM/OM, as I recall), there would have to be several sets of fake feet.

More on Elkins Creek:

"In his own words Mr. Akin goes on to describe the events of the day in which he discovered and cast the print.

“It was a morning after a nightly visit that I discovered the footprints. I walked the general area looking for a point of origin. It was shear luck that I found the little muddy island in the middle of the creek. It stuck up like a turtle shell in the creek’s southwestern flow. Its shape was reminiscent of an Australian boomerang. It was densely packed and had survived many flood seasons.

The prints were huge and gave me pause (which means they scared me and I looked around to see if the donor was still nearby). My initial reactions were fright, shock, and disbelief. I was certain that someone was 'hoaxing' these events. However, I fought through my personal misgivings and made the cast.

The creature left two prints on the mud island. Only one print was worthy of documentation. It is this print that has become known as the 'Elkin’s Creek Cast.' When I initially surveyed the print, it was slowly beginning to fill with water seepage. In my opinion, the time elapsed between the printing and my discovery was approximately four hours.

The print was made in a combination of clay soil and river sand. In addition, the casting area was covered with decaying plant matter. It was a fortunate location to make a print cast, as it was moist enough to catch dermal ridges and dry enough to retain the aspects noted in the subsequent print analysis.

I cast the print and continued to look in the area. It appeared to me that the creature moved away to the denser area adjacent to the Flint River.” "

And:

"I asked Mr. Chilcutt what his initial reaction was when first viewing the cast.

“My first impression was wow what a big cast”, Mr. Chilcutt replied.

Mr. Chilcutt went on to explain that while the cast had come from Georgia, it possessed ridges similar to those observed in other casts from Washington State taken several years before the events at Elkin's Creek.

Dr. Krantz, Dr. Meldrum, and Mr. Chilcutt would all come to the same opinion regarding the cast. To all three men, the cast was real. To Mr. Akin who discovered the track not only was the track real, but so was it's source.

“I still do believe that the creature exists”, writes Mr. Akin. “I believe that right now, out on the river in some secluded spot, it is sitting or standing and trying to figure out what to eat next. I am as certain of this fact as the turning of the earth.” "

http://www.georgiabigfoot.com//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28&Itemid=29

Taken in context, some of these prints and trackways seem highly unlikely to have been hoaxed. John Green has specifically talked about dug-in toes where the prints go up inclines. Rigid fake feet have a snowshow effect. They don't imprint deeply on a firm substrate. John experimented too.

Since Matt and Rick Noll seem to be on friendly terms as well, perhaps tube should show his "agnosticism" by asking to visit Rick's research area in hopes of finding some real prints for comparison rather than just giving us more photos from Alki Beach.
 
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How about the easiest question in the world about dermals? Would that be worth his time to silence the doubt?

E-mail him yourself. I sent him a link to the Abbott Hill page and didn't get a reply. He's busy man; I doubt he has time for this nonsense.

Why? Because Jimmy's gotta gun?

Read the posts. Would you want him to see some of yours?
 
I make my decision from what is painfully obvious but I can't help notice the irony of you asking about believing everything someone says. Maybe you could indulge in some speculation as to why none of these 'dermal' prints look anything like the the textures of human feet that have never worn shoes and live in mountainous areas.

Your referring to the picture from Chris Murphy's forum, I take it? I believe that was posted without a link. Murphy asked that too.

"Peter Byrne kindly sent me a photo he took some years ago in Nepal of the sole of a Sherpa's foot. These people don't wear foot coverings of any sort, so their feet become very calloused - indeed, Peter remarked that they can stamp out a cigarette without a wince.

When he first sent the photo to Rene Dahinden, and Rene showed it to me, he commented on the point that if sasquatch feet were like human feet, then they would also become calloused and all those cracks and crevices would naturally show up in their footprints and subsequent plaster casts taken from prints.

If you check the various photos of prints and casts in Meet the Sasquatch, you will see that such are not present. I questioned Dr. Meldrum on this and he said that to his knowledge, we don't see such a condition in the soles of chimp or gorilla feet. What this tells me (totally without any scientific credibility) is that what we have here is one small indicator that the sasquatch is either not human in any way, or an exceedingly distant relative - so distant that to make a connection with humans we would probably need another "missing link" between it and us."

http://forum.hancockhouse.com/article.php?story=20061108170309536&query=Murphy

Why don't Mountain Gorillas, living in mountains and never wearing shoes have thick callouses?

20061108170309536_2.jpg


OkapisSnareweb.jpg


http://www.mgvp.org/pages/news/five-mgvp-vets-work-on-drc-snare-removal.htm
 
Why don't Mountain Gorillas, living in mountains and never wearing shoes have thick callouses?
Ask Meldrum, he should know .. I bet there is a very good reason ..

Probably has something to do with not walking on two feet all the time..

I think Apeman over at BFF posted some picks of gorilla feet that had some pretty serious looking callouses.. Want me to dig them up ?

Of course I don't really expect you to ask questions that you really don't want a plausible answer for ..
 
Page 256, as I've mentioned. Even if there were a close up of the area on that cast in the book, it probably wouldn't scan well enough to show the details in question.



Experiments were done in the lab to test if the features near the center, the flattened area and the concentric rings, were from the pour. Then he talks about another 13" cast with ridges similar to the ones Chilcutt identified as dermal ridges, only fainter, apparently because of settling dust. He says this before he mentions Matt's "challenge" (on page 257). I don't think he knew at the time tube isn't quite the "agnostic" he was painting himself to be and Jeff wasn't setting out to "bring down" the work. He was as interested in anyone in finding out what causes this kind of casting artifact.
Thank you for that rundown, LAL. It's helpful and I appreciate it. Forgive me for oversimplifying it as 'no, there are not separate cast from a successive trackway displaying matching ridge flow patterns, scarring, etc. I don't doubt that Meldrum wants to verify the veracity of these casts but it's clear that anyone claiming dermals is unable to meet the most simple criteria before making these claims.
Chilcutt acknowledged casting artifacts and showed the difference between the rounded ridges and the flattened ridges in a chalk talk with tube. I posted that picture some time ago. Last I heard, it's all very friendly. If it still is, maybe tube will invite him here.
Yes, I remember. I hope I'm not the only one who wasn't able to find the posting of a picture of a line on a chalk board drawn by Chilcutt as the semblance of some illuminating explanation. It would be very nice if Chilcutt would indulge some of us here who are skeptical of his conclusions but I won't hold my breath.
 
E-mail him yourself. I sent him a link to the Abbott Hill page and didn't get a reply. He's busy man; I doubt he has time for this nonsense.
Sounds like a plan. Can you pm me the address? I doubt 'nonsense' is the best descriptor for the fundamental point of my new sig.
Read the posts. Would you want him to see some of yours?
No offence, Lu, but sometimes you make these weird little emotive appeals like were all a bunch of kids.

Why should I worry if Chilcutt sees my posts. He stakes his reputation on his findings and if they're shown to be suspect he's gonna catch some flak with the rest of the big boys. Unless I posted something to the effect of 'Jimmy is a biatch' I don't think I've got anything to worry about. (Mr. Chilcutt, if you're reading this Tube put me up to all of it and try gettin' that gun into Japan, sucka!)
 
I'd have thought you were very familiar with bifurcations. Are we to believe that bifurcations (the ridges seeming to fork), short ridges, ending ridges, and closures could not occur without primate dermals?

Don't forget deltas.

I guess that's a great big sweat pore there too, right?

There may be several.

You're missing the point. These's casts don't have dessication ridges which out of some crazy fluke exactly mimic what only primate dermals do. There are NO features on any of the casts that could only be created by primate feet.

Oh? Someone painstakingly carved in all the detail?

Incidentally, the question may seem silly to you but how do you know they're not monkies?

It does seem silly to me. Morphologically speaking, they're a hominid primate. Some of the largest fossil monkeys are from South America. They only got to about 45-50 lbs.

http://pin.primate.wisc.edu/aboutp/myths/monorei.html

We can see it very well here and I'm sorry but IMO it's ridiculous that you or anyone thinks those are dermals.You're again totally missing the point. By what criteria that hasn't already been showed to be flawed is he ruling out fakes?

I really wish you could see a presentation of his. If you hadn't been so rude to SY, he might have lent you WCS 2003. In it, Chilcutt said anything can be faked, but he also said, that based on his examinations, there is a North American Ape.

Thousands of prints and NEVER seen anything like those on the outsides of bigfoot prints.

Apparently not. In his own write:

"Area "C" is located on the right side of the left foot. Notice that the ridges run lengthwise along the side of the foot. This longitudinal flow of the ridges is not found in the human or known non-human primate.

This ridge flow is consistent with the ridge flow of the 1967 Blue Creek Mountain Road casting and the 1984 Walla Walla, Table Spring casting."

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/sbs/elkins.html

You're painting yourself in the corner right along with him.

Want to compare me to asparagus while you're at it?

Yeah, what?:boggled: Where do get that?

Chilcutt measured them, I assume. (Just a wild guess.)

Anyway it's hard to forget they're almost twice the width of ANY primate dermals.

And mature sasquatches are almost twice the size of your average ape.

Remember Krantz?

"A flexible sole pad is further supported by the configuration of the edges of the footprint indentations. These are nearly vertical in many areas, and actually overhang by as much as 1 cm in one place. This overhang (or undercut of the impression) might have been caused by sagging of the surrounding dirt after the imprints were made, although personal observation of many tracks makes this seem unlikely to me. A rigid structure could not have pressed laterally against the walls of its impression, then withdrawn medially in removal. A flexible foot, especially one with a thick sole pad, would make just these movements, leaving an impression that can be wider at the bottom than it is nearer the top. Detailed skin impressions are visible on some of these vertical and overhanging walls, with dermal ridges clearly showing in one case near the heel of "full right" (Fig. 9). These details are directly imprinted into the side walls, and thus could not have been made by a rigid structure with any combination of movements."

And:

"From ridge to ridge, these lines are spaced about 1/2 mm apart — more in some areas and less in others. This kind of spacing is typical for almost all higher primates, regardless of body size. Within a primate species, large individuals (usually males) have ridges somewhat farther apart than in small individuals. The number of ridges in the fetus is geared to the average adult body size of the species, so those individuals that grow to larger sizes have the given number of ridges more spread out, and vice-versa. Friction skin tends to have the optimum density of ridge spacing for best adhesion to smooth objects. The number of lines laid down in the fetus varies according to the adult size for each species. There is no adjustment for sexual size differences. Thus, it is not clear whether our 38 cm tracks were deposited by a male or female."

And:

"The dermal ridges in these track casts show bifurcations, terminations, and isolated short segments in various places. These are the same kinds of variations that are seen in human dermatoglyphics, and they occur with normal frequencies.

If a dermal ridge running across a toe is counted as "one," and a ridge of similar length on the sole as another, then these three track casts display almost a thousand dermal ridges. Each of those that has been carefully observed is a smoothly rounded ridge in cross section, and not a scratch or V-shaped groove as would be produced by engraving. The furrows are also rounded valleys between the ridges, and are relatively narrow. The spacing between ridges varies only gradually from one location to another; there are no abrupt breaks in pattern density.

Ridges can be seen in some places well off the sole, more than 2 cm up the side of the foot. This shows most clearly around the outside edge of the heel on the cast of "full right" (Fig. 9). The greater extension of friction skin up the edge of the foot, as compared with a much lesser degree on the hand, is normal in primate dermatoglyphics.

The ridges are clearest, and with the deepest relief, on those areas that bear the least weight. Around the edges of the foot itself, and around individual toes in particular, the skin should normally strike the substrate only briefly. In these areas, ridge to furrow depths are at a maximum. On the more weight-bearing surfaces of the sole and middle of the toe pads, the ridges appear to be somewhat worn down (Fig. 10). This is normal for a primate that walks a great deal on hard surfaces. I am told by a primatologist (preferring anonymity) that only a big gorilla, living in a concrete-floored cage, would wear down the ridges completely. Interestingly, the footprints at the Freeman sighting location (the first individual) show no ridges, except for a few traces around the edges in some places. Perhaps this individual had done considerably more walking than the second individual being studied here."

http://www.rfthomas.clara.net/papers/dermal.html

Of course, he's not talking about the Onion Mountain cast.
 
If you check the various photos of prints and casts in Meet the Sasquatch, you will see that such are not present. I questioned Dr. Meldrum on this and he said that to his knowledge, we don't see such a condition in the soles of chimp or gorilla feet. What this tells me (totally without any scientific credibility) is that what we have here is one small indicator that the sasquatch is either not human in any way, or an exceedingly distant relative - so distant that to make a connection with humans we would probably need another "missing link" between it and us."

http://forum.hancockhouse.com/article.php?story=20061108170309536&query=Murphy

Why don't Mountain Gorillas, living in mountains and never wearing shoes have thick callouses?
Whoa, nosedive. Are you serious? Is he serious? It's like watching the little Dutch boy. Greg, dig 'em up!

Apparently chimps and gorillas don't get callouses so neither should the 8 ft, 600lb bipedal nomadic wayfaring bigfoot? Yeah, wha?
 
Sounds like a plan. Can you pm me the address?

It's on his page at ISU. Get permission to repost if he answers so we can all see what he says, okay?

I doubt 'nonsense' is the best descriptor for the fundamental point of my new sig.No offence, Lu, but sometimes you make these weird little emotive appeals like were all a bunch of kids.

And some of you act like you're a bunch of kids. I realize some of the insults are quite clever and show great comedic talent, but they get quite annoying after about 20 minutes. Last time Jeff looked, I doubt he stayed that long.

Why should I worry if Chilcutt sees my posts.

I'd want to retract the asparagus.

He stakes his reputation on his findings and if they're shown to be suspect he's gonna catch some flak with the rest of the big boys. Unless I posted something to the effect of 'Jimmy is a biatch' I don't think I've got anything to worry about. (Mr. Chilcutt, if you're reading this Tube put me up to all of it and try gettin' that gun into Japan, sucka!)

It's okay if he sees tube's "condomhead" post, then? Maybe a new thread would be in order.

What makes you think he carries a gun these days?
 
Don't forget deltas.



There may be several.



Oh? Someone painstakingly carved in all the detail?
Sig.
It does seem silly to me. Morphologically speaking, they're a hominid primate.
They must be in England, also.
I really wish you could see a presentation of his. If you hadn't been so rude to SY, he might have lent you WCS 2003.
I won't be losing any sleep over missed Sweaty contributions.
In it, Chilcutt said anything can be faked, but he also said, that based on his examinations, there is a North American Ape.
Wow, I really missed out.
Apparently not. In his own write:...
Sig.
Want to compare me to asparagus while you're at it?
Do you think the comparison would be fitting? I don't. Want to stay focused? Rest of your post- sig.
 
Whoa, nosedive. Are you serious? Is he serious? It's like watching the little Dutch boy. Greg, dig 'em up!

Whatever that may mean.

Apparently chimps and gorillas don't get callouses so neither should the 8 ft, 600lb bipedal nomadic wayfaring bigfoot? Yeah, wha?

I used to have a Squirrel Monkey. She didn't get them either.

Chimpanzees are our closest known relative and they don't get calluses? Interesting.

Some of the flat worn areas noted in prints and casts might be callused.

Shoes can cause calluses in humans and quadrupedal walking can cause them on the hands.

_41413300_family3_bbc_203.jpg


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4782492.stm

"Old World monkeys all develop ischial callosities (specialized calluses used in sitting) prenatally and have the same dental formula as apes and humans: two incisors, a canine, two premolars or bicuspids, and three molars in each quadrant"

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=4909&page=92

Prenatally? So they don't have be from sitting around in mountainous regions.

I think I've spent enough time on calluses.
 
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