should Holocaust denial be illegal in britain

BobTheCoward said:
You are right. I do understand. I can understand germany's failure as a society and put it right up there with understanding cultures that practice fgm. What i can't see is how they can put up that policy as anything but evil.

Cowardice is the perfectly acceptable reason. If Germany wanted to pass the law and have their nation look like reasonable adults, rather than being led by pitiful children, then they failed.
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I have been active on this forum for 12 years now and although I don't have many posts, I do read quite a lot.
During those years, my high horse has grown much shorter legs. So short in fact, that I don't even try to ride it anymore.
That's thanks to the many different viewpoints expressed here, which are very often much more eloquently put than I could ever hope to achieve and coming from people much smarter than I.
It's a humbling experience but quite educating and very much worth it.
I can recommend it to you.
 
The Don said:
I've said it before and I'll no doubt say it again, sometimes your right to free speech interferes with my right to live free of harassment. The U.S. tends towards the former (although there are both de jure and de facto restrictions to free speech in the U.S) whereas the U.K. and Europe tends towards the latter. The prohibition also tends to relate to the message, tone and how it'e delivered rather than being binary.

In the U.K. I'm free to be as homophobic as I like and indeed I could run for public office on a homophobic platform. What I'm not allowed to do OTOH is to gather a group of like-minded people together and verbally harass gay people as they go about their business.
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There you go again, talking sense and correcting blatant misapprehensions. When will you learn....
 
ZeeGerman said:
I have been active on this forum for 12 years now and although I don't have many posts, I do read quite a lot.
During those years, my high horse has grown much shorter legs. So short in fact, that I don't even try to ride it anymore.
That's thanks to the many different viewpoints expressed here, which are very often much more eloquently put than I could ever hope to achieve and coming from people much smarter than I.
It's a humbling experience but quite educating and very much worth it.
I can recommend it to you.
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Ouch.
 
The Don said:
I've said it before and I'll no doubt say it again, sometimes your right to free speech interferes with my right to live free of harassment. The U.S. tends towards the former (although there are both de jure and de facto restrictions to free speech in the U.S) whereas the U.K. and Europe tends towards the latter. The prohibition also tends to relate to the message, tone and how it'e delivered rather than being binary.

In the U.K. I'm free to be as homophobic as I like and indeed I could run for public office on a homophobic platform. What I'm not allowed to do OTOH is to gather a group of like-minded people together and verbally harass gay people as they go about their business.
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In Scotland recently a crank was arrested(correctly) for having a sign in public with something like Leviticus on it. His right to be stupid should not extend to pushing his bigotry on other people. Also here a long overdue raft of anti sectarianism laws at being rolled out. Catholics will no longer be able to do things like ira chants at football matches and Protestants will no longer be able to sing about king billy at matches.

Some people are going on about free speech, but we have HAD o enact laws because educational campaigns have failed. Time after time well meaning people and groups have poured money and time into fighting the above-and holocaust denial-with words and the education and communication approach.
They have all failed.
They failed because the homophobic, the holocaust denier,the sectarian bigot etc are blinded by so much hate that words can't get in. The fact that so many move from words to violence speaks for itself,the reported anti Semitic,homophobic attacks are the minority. Far more happen than are reported.
I would rather see a Holocaust denier jailed for words than violence.
 
skeptichaggis said:
In Scotland recently a crank was arrested(correctly) for having a sign in public with something like Leviticus on it. His right to be stupid should not extend to pushing his bigotry on other people. Also here a long overdue raft of anti sectarianism laws at being rolled out. Catholics will no longer be able to do things like ira chants at football matches and Protestants will no longer be able to sing about king billy at matches.
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Do you have a link for that story ? Typically stories which start as a "person arrested for saying X" tends to resolve into a person arrested for trespass, or breach of the peace following an unsuccessful interaction with the police where they are asked to move along and stop harassing people.

This is why I keep harping on about context. Someone could say something deeply anti-gay or anti-Catholic in the context of a debate but a group of football fans yelling at another group is a completely different matter.

skeptichaggis said:
Some people are going on about free speech, but we have HAD o enact laws because educational campaigns have failed. Time after time well meaning people and groups have poured money and time into fighting the above-and holocaust denial-with words and the education and communication approach.
They have all failed.
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Evidence ?

As far as I'm aware, outside extremist Islamists and racist groups, holocaust denial isn't an issue in the U.K. Merely making the expression of views (as opposed to the way and place in which they are expressed) illegal IMO changes nothing and may be counterproductive by driving these views underground.

skeptichaggis said:
They failed because the homophobic, the holocaust denier,the sectarian bigot etc are blinded by so much hate that words can't get in. The fact that so many move from words to violence speaks for itself,the reported anti Semitic,homophobic attacks are the minority. Far more happen than are reported.
I would rather see a Holocaust denier jailed for words than violence.
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...and I would rather not live in the kind of intolerant society you advocate where expressing views, without incitement or threat, outside strictly defined limits results in incarceration. With the risk of Godwinning the thread it sounds rather like............ nevermind
 
skeptichaggis said:
In Scotland recently a crank was arrested(correctly) for having a sign in public with something like Leviticus on it. His right to be stupid should not extend to pushing his bigotry on other people.
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If he was merely walking about with a sign, and not otherwise infringing the public peace, I think he should have been left alone. What was written on the sign? I am aware that Leviticus is pretty nutty.
Also here a long overdue raft of anti sectarianism laws at being rolled out. Catholics will no longer be able to do things like ira chants at football matches and Protestants will no longer be able to sing about king billy at matches ...
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Crowds shouting provocative slogans at football matches is one thing. Banning people from expressing ideas, even wrong ones that they are attracted to for bigoted reasons, is quite another.
I would rather see a Holocaust denier jailed for words than violence.
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My view is quite the opposite. Nor do I believe jailing people for words, unless these are shouted as provocative slogans in crowds, or expressed in some other dangerous environment, is likely to prevent future violence.
 
skeptichaggis said:
In Scotland recently a crank was arrested(correctly) for having a sign in public with something like Leviticus on it. His right to be stupid should not extend to pushing his bigotry on other people. Also here a long overdue raft of anti sectarianism laws at being rolled out. Catholics will no longer be able to do things like ira chants at football matches and Protestants will no longer be able to sing about king billy at matches.

Some people are going on about free speech, but we have HAD o enact laws because educational campaigns have failed. Time after time well meaning people and groups have poured money and time into fighting the above-and holocaust denial-with words and the education and communication approach.
They have all failed.
They failed because the homophobic, the holocaust denier,the sectarian bigot etc are blinded by so much hate that words can't get in. The fact that so many move from words to violence speaks for itself,the reported anti Semitic,homophobic attacks are the minority. Far more happen than are reported.
I would rather see a Holocaust denier jailed for words than violence.
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Because you didn't get your way trying to convince people, you are going to use the violence of the state to make their speech illegal.

Zeegerman is not a fan of my deas, but you won't see me trying to pass laws trying to stop it. Zees non acceptance of my ideas is my failing.
 
skeptichaggis said:
In Scotland recently a crank was arrested(correctly) for having a sign in public with something like Leviticus on it.
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There's something disturbingly ironic about that. Hold up a sign with bigoted wordage on it and get arrested. Criticise that same bigoted wordage at source - e.g. the Bible, the Koran - and be accused of religious intolerance which, under certain circumstances, can itself be a crime.
 
The Don said:
I've found an exceptionally partial account of the Christian Leviticus story:

http://www.christiantoday.com/artic...ening.language.by.quoting.leviticus/50564.htm

It seems to have been Taunton:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-32017649
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I don't think that could have been the same event.
skeptichaggis said:
In Scotland recently a crank was arrested(correctly) for having a sign in public with something like Leviticus on it.
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Taunton isn't in Scotland, and the preacher there not only had a sign, but a loudspeaker through which he was haranguing people. I can see a reason why one might be arrested for that, but not for a mere sign.
 
cornsail said:
How is it the same?



How is it not historical research or revisionism and how is it a racial attack? You haven't really backed up your position.

Personally, I tend to assume that if someone is a holocaust denier, then there is a very good chance they are a racist. Like greater than 50%. But I don't think it's a perfect correlation. Lots of people believe lots of really stupid things just because they happened to read it somewhere. From "eat right for your blood type" to "HIV has nothing to do with AIDS" to "CO2 emissions aren't heating up the planet" to 9/11 conspiracies to moon hoax conspiracies to homeopathy. Some people even believe in Christianity. Now, I do think racists are going to be the most likely types to be attracted to Holocaust denial nonsense, but I see no reason to assume that non-racists are immune to it given all the other ridiculous things they believe.
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If you think for a single second that Holocaust denial is in any way at all legitimate historical reaserch I really don't have anything to say to you. I will however point out the evidence for a minimum of 6,500,000 Jews(not including gypsies etc)were killed by the Nazi era SS(both Waffen and other departments) the Luftwaffe (carried out killings in Ukraine etc)and the Wehrmacht by means of gassing,shooting and starvation is IRREFUTABLE. It is,using the historical evidence honestly IMPOSSIBLE to come to any other conclusion.

Note I am not in any way whatsoever suggesting you hold denial beliefs. I am however pointing out your claim that Holocaust denial can be anything other the a anti Semitic attack is very wrong.
 
Craig B said:
I don't think that could have been the same event. Taunton isn't in Scotland, and the preacher there not only had a sign, but a loudspeaker through which he was haranguing people. I can see a reason why one might be arrested for that, but not for a mere sign.
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I think it was Dundee,I could be wrong and maybe just got mixed up but I don't think its the same event were talking about.
 
baron said:
There's something disturbingly ironic about that. Hold up a sign with bigoted wordage on it and get arrested. Criticise that same bigoted wordage at source - e.g. the Bible, the Koran - and be accused of religious intolerance which, under certain circumstances, can itself be a crime.
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The litmus test for things like this should be evidence. You want to claim on a street corner that flooding is caused by gay marridge. OK fine,now prove it. If you can you can rant about homosexuality causing national strife all day long. If you can't then you are launching a vile,unprovoked, bigoted attack on your fellow man(or women,transgender) or no reason other than satisfying your own vile hatred.
However if you want to stand on a street corner and rant about something that can be proved,say the Catholic church covering up child abuse then you can-no matter who it offends because its TRUE.
 
skeptichaggis said:
If you think for a single second that Holocaust denial is in any way at all legitimate historical reaserch I really don't have anything to say to you.
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I note the addition of the word "legitimate" in there, a weasel word, I'm sure. The point is that one researches history, bias and all, and that's historical research. No one said that holocaust denialism is in any way as defensible a conclusion as the more mainstream one.
 
skeptichaggis said:
The litmus test for things like this should be evidence. You want to claim on a street corner that flooding is caused by gay marridge. OK fine,now prove it.
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If you can't prove something you're not allowed to say it?

What a joke of a position. You hate speech. (Hey I said "hate speech")
 
The anti-separatism laws in Scotland are not just about speech but also about actions like the orange order standing outside catholic churches playing their drums loudly in order to disrupt catholic communion services and intimidating people with loud slogans and songs about streets running in catholic (fenian) blood. this is not in days gone past but in Scotland in 2015. However, it has lessened but not completely disappeared and whether this is threatening behaviour or just free speech can be debated but the people being sung about and having their services disrupted do feel threatened.
 
Craig B said:
If he was merely walking about with a sign, and not otherwise infringing the public peace, I think he should have been left alone. What was written on the sign? I am aware that Leviticus is pretty nutty.

Crowds shouting provocative slogans at football matches is one thing. Banning people from expressing ideas, even wrong ones that they are attracted to for bigoted reasons, is quite another. My view is quite the opposite. Nor do I believe jailing people for words, unless these are shouted as provocative slogans in crowds, or expressed in some other dangerous environment, is likely to prevent future violence.
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Yeah, pretty much this. I'd only want legal consequences for speech where:
- Slander
- Incitement to violence (I guess that's where the football chants might get in trouble - I haven't been to a Celtic/Rangers match)

It shouldn't be the purpose of the State to protect the delicate feelings of its citizens from any possible harm. Nor should it be the State which determines the limits of 'acceptable' discourse for a free citizenry. Freedom should include being able to hold and express the wrong opinions (unless your idea of a perfect society is something like the Presbyterian Covenanters).
 
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