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should Holocaust denial be illegal in britain

applecorped said:
It shouldn't be illegal at all, anywhere.
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It's very shortsighted, too. I believe it truly does more harm than good. The idea that some aspect of truth would require the protection of law in order to not be challenged will lead many to conclude that it must NOT be the truth, because the truth should be capable of standing on its own.

A standard denier admonition is "find out what you're not permitted by law to question, to understand the truth". Putting people in prison for questioning the holocaust is a good way to make people think that there must be something to what they're saying.

Generally the kinds of governments that throw people in jail for their ideas and writings are the types of governments that fear the expression of truth. No modern society should have laws like this. It's absurd to think that statements or opinions about a historical event should be forbidden, and it makes the governments doing this look really bad and corrupt, like they're afraid of these opinions getting out there because the masses might find out the truth. That just feeds into the deniers' arguments.

I realize that most holocaust deniers are racist, but it's completely possible for someone to be a holocaust denier simply because they feel the evidence points in that direction. Regardless of whether or not they are intelligent for coming to such a conclusion, it's crazy to think that they should be thrown in prison for expressing that conclusion.
 
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It's not unreasonable for Germany and Austria to ban Holocaust Denial, in the particular circumstances - circumstances we actually want to draw attention to. Before someone is put in prison they are first brought into open court where the whole subject can be aired and the people involved exposed. This is the result we want. The existence of this anomaly in German and Austrian freedom of speech points up the uniqueness of the subject.

It's not broke, don't mess about with it, in Germany or the UK.
 
ZeeGerman said:
It's illegal here in Germany for - one would guess - obvious reasons. While I think that those who suffered sanctions due to the underlying law probably deserved it, I would rather have the law against "Volksverhetzung (incitement of popular hatred)", §130 StgB softened to make it legal in favor of free speech.

Not going to happen though. Even suggesting it would mean political suicide no matter from which side of the political spectrum you are (far right excluded, but what would you expect from them anyways). Imagine the headline "Holocaust denial now legal in Germany!" and the reaction from Israel, the jewish lobby on the one side, the applause from the likes of Iran on the other and you know that no one will touch the topic even with a long stick.

Zee
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Obvious reasons? I don't see obvious reasons to impair the right of human beings to speak their mind. It seems like after seeing how bad restricting speech turns out, they wouldn't want to do it again.

Unless, the obvious reason that Germany remains full of the descendants of those monsters and have no qualms against the monsterous act of restricting speech...again.

I love speech. By the way, the king of Thailand is human garbage unfit to rule.
 
Aepervius said:
Not really. That would be correct if everybody was a rational actor. It isn't the case.

Furthermore i doubt that this "mystical power" stuff work for anybody beyond the teenage. Most adult look at idea whether they are attractive to them due to various rational or irrational factor. But I have never met anybody (after a certain age) which would be interested into following something because it was forbidden. Learn about it because it is forbidden ? Yes. But not live it because it is forbidden.
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People are rational actors. Others use the label irrational because they cannot tolerate results they disagree with.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Obvious reasons? I don't see obvious reasons to impair the right of human beings to speak their mind. It seems like after seeing how bad restricting speech turns out, they wouldn't want to do it again.
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This is backwards reasoning. It's true that the Nazi persecution of communists after the Reichstag fire was instrumental in their rise to power but that was about getting rid of political opponents by alleging them of conspiring a coup. But you make it sound like there was no one who could criticize them during their surge. That was not the case, they were just much better at occupying the various modes of speech, especially the airwaves, than other parties. The constitutional flaws in the Weimar republic related to poor balance of powers.

Dictators enjoy personality cults and censorship but they are usually not the means by which they rise to power, though perhaps useful in retaining it. I think a lot of people overrate the power speech has in dictatorships.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Obvious reasons? I don't see obvious reasons to impair the right of human beings to speak their mind. It seems like after seeing how bad restricting speech turns out, they wouldn't want to do it again.
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I really am surprised that you can't see why holocaust denial might be unlawful in Germany. That you don't agree with such a restriction I can understand; but that you can't perceive obvious reasons for it is baffling.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Obvious reasons? I don't see obvious reasons to impair the right of human beings to speak their mind. It seems like after seeing how bad restricting speech turns out, they wouldn't want to do it again.
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No reason to fly off the handle. The most (apparently not so much) obvious reason I failed to spell out is this:

After 1945 Holocaust denial was wide spread. Many, many people simply refused to accept what had happened, what they had been part of. Even KZ guards claimed ignorance about the dimension of the extermination machine.

So, to come to some form of fresh start for Germany, which could only be based on the recognition of the full responsibility for the holocaust (and other atrocities) prohibiting the denial at that time was totally necessary in my opinion. There was much more at stake than a free speech issue.

Is the legislation necessary today? I say no, so do many others, but since it's there it's not going away anytime soon because (... see the note about political suicide in my previous post)

Frankly, I regard it as a none issue. It's a bad law with very little day to day effect, at least from what I experience in Germany.

Unless, the obvious reason that Germany remains full of the descendants of those monsters and have no qualms against the monsterous act of restricting speech...again.
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I'll leave that one without comment...


I love speech. By the way, the king of Thailand is human garbage unfit to rule.
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No argument here.

Zee
 
skeptichaggis said:
Holocaust denial is exactly the same as calling a black man the n word.
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How is it the same?

It is not"historical reserch" or revisionism its a racial verbal/written attack on a person/persons due to there culture and race.
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How is it not historical research or revisionism and how is it a racial attack? You haven't really backed up your position.

Personally, I tend to assume that if someone is a holocaust denier, then there is a very good chance they are a racist. Like greater than 50%. But I don't think it's a perfect correlation. Lots of people believe lots of really stupid things just because they happened to read it somewhere. From "eat right for your blood type" to "HIV has nothing to do with AIDS" to "CO2 emissions aren't heating up the planet" to 9/11 conspiracies to moon hoax conspiracies to homeopathy. Some people even believe in Christianity. Now, I do think racists are going to be the most likely types to be attracted to Holocaust denial nonsense, but I see no reason to assume that non-racists are immune to it given all the other ridiculous things they believe.
 
Doghouse Reilly said:
I believe it truly does more harm than good. The idea that some aspect of truth would require the protection of law in order to not be challenged will lead many to conclude that it must NOT be the truth, because the truth should be capable of standing on its own.
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This is an excellent point.
 
Doghouse Reilly said:
It's very shortsighted, too. I believe it truly does more harm than good. The idea that some aspect of truth would require the protection of law in order to not be challenged will lead many to conclude that it must NOT be the truth, because the truth should be capable of standing on its own.

A standard denier admonition is "find out what you're not permitted by law to question, to understand the truth". Putting people in prison for questioning the holocaust is a good way to make people think that there must be something to what they're saying.

Generally the kinds of governments that throw people in jail for their ideas and writings are the types of governments that fear the expression of truth. No modern society should have laws like this. It's absurd to think that statements or opinions about a historical event should be forbidden, and it makes the governments doing this look really bad and corrupt, like they're afraid of these opinions getting out there because the masses might find out the truth. That just feeds into the deniers' arguments.

I realize that most holocaust deniers are racist, but it's completely possible for someone to be a holocaust denier simply because they feel the evidence points in that direction. Regardless of whether or not they are intelligent for coming to such a conclusion, it's crazy to think that they should be thrown in prison for expressing that conclusion.
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:bigclap
 
Craig B said:
I really am surprised that you can't see why holocaust denial might be unlawful in Germany. That you don't agree with such a restriction I can understand; but that you can't perceive obvious reasons for it is baffling.
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You are right. I do understand. I can understand germany's failure as a society and put it right up there with understanding cultures that practice fgm. What i can't see is how they can put up that policy as anything but evil.

Cowardice is the perfectly acceptable reason. If Germany wanted to pass the law and have their nation look like reasonable adults, rather than being led by pitiful children, then they failed.
 
BobTheCoward said:
You are right. I do understand. I can understand germany's failure as a society and put it right up there with understanding cultures that practice fgm. What i can't see is how they can put up that policy as anything but evil.

Cowardice is the perfectly acceptable reason. If Germany wanted to pass the law and have their nation look like reasonable adults, rather than being led by pitiful children, then they failed.
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One tiny anomaly regarding a period of unique horror does not, in my opinion, reduce a nation to infantile failure and evil. Opinions may differ, obviously. You must find the world a very disappointing place in so many ways.
 
BobTheCoward said:
You are right. I do understand. I can understand germany's failure as a society and put it right up there with understanding cultures that practice fgm. What i can't see is how they can put up that policy as anything but evil.

Cowardice is the perfectly acceptable reason. If Germany wanted to pass the law and have their nation look like reasonable adults, rather than being led by pitiful children, then they failed.
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I see. Well, if that's the result of your understanding, maybe that faculty isn't all it's cracked up to be.
 
Quite the contrary if holocaust deniers were denied the opportunity to should out slogans in the middle of the night outside your British hotel on your next visit.
 
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