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should Holocaust denial be illegal in britain

skeptichaggis said:
I'm a true lover of history and one of the things I really hate is to see history twisted for modern religious, political or ideological reasons. There are unfortunately many examples of this and I think I speak for all here when I say Holocaust denial is one of the very,very,VERY worse.
Should Holocaust denial be illegal in the UK then,I firmly believe so. Holocaust deniers often go on about free speech but I think that's just a bit of rubbish. Unfortunately many intelligent folk buy into it and claim that vile as Holocaust denial is it should not be illegal. Often these same folk repeat parrot like the"slippery slope"argument of the deniers.
They often fail completely to realize that in the UK if you call a black man the n word you are arrested and punished by the courts. Same happens in any other racially abusive verbal attack. Most folk see no problem with this.
Holocaust denial is exactly the same as calling a black man the n word. It is not"historical reserch" or revisionism its a racial verbal/written attack on a person/persons due to there culture and race. Its that simple.
So yes I think it should be a crime in the same way as homophobic insults are in Britain.
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Not only should Holocaust denial be legal, but the other forms of offensive speech that you have called out should also be legal.
 
Ziggurat said:
Which doesn't really have anything to do with outlawing Holocaust denial.
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True but you were responding to specific point with a riff about how restrictive speech is in the U.K. (and how bad that is) compared to the situation in the U.S.
 
It's illegal here in Germany for - one would guess - obvious reasons. While I think that those who suffered sanctions due to the underlying law probably deserved it, I would rather have the law against "Volksverhetzung (incitement of popular hatred)", §130 StgB softened to make it legal in favor of free speech.

Not going to happen though. Even suggesting it would mean political suicide no matter from which side of the political spectrum you are (far right excluded, but what would you expect from them anyways). Imagine the headline "Holocaust denial now legal in Germany!" and the reaction from Israel, the jewish lobby on the one side, the applause from the likes of Iran on the other and you know that no one will touch the topic even with a long stick.

Zee
 
Belz... said:
No.

Let it stand in the light, in all its ugliness and vile purpose.
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Indeed, point at it and ask, very loudly, "Why are these people telling these lies? What do they hope to achieve? This guy for instance - what's his background? Well look at that. And this one ..."

Holocaust Denial is too closely identified with Islam these days to be particularly attractive to Nazis, I suspect. We can reasonably expect it to die off from that source.
 
CapelDodger said:
Holocaust Denial is too closely identified with Islam these days to be particularly attractive to Nazis, I suspect. We can reasonably expect it to die off from that source.
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So it's the Muslims we need to blame. The Nazis are OK guys. :)
 
Belz... said:
No.

Let it stand in the light, in all its ugliness and vile purpose.
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Basically, yeah.

Making it illegal only drives it underground. By keeping it legal, the nasty folks can be easily identified and refuted.

In my experience as an internet user for some 20 years, the holocaust deniers only flourish where they are the only ones allowed to speak. Wherever they face unrestricted debate, they eventually get tired of having their arses handed to them and go away.
 
Nick Terry said:
No.

I say this as a Brit and as an expert on Holocaust denial.
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Interesting profession. Perhaps you could explain the foundation of Holocaust denial. The Holocaust is not only thoroughly documented, but countless actual participants -- both victims and perpetrators -- recounted their direct experiences and observations after the war. Even at the Nuremberg trials, the defendants claimed they were only following orders, not that the events didn't occur. I can understand that there might be some room for historians to legitimately debate particular details, like exactly how many victims or who did what where, but what argument could there possibly be that the Holocaust didn't happen?
 
ZeeGerman said:
It's illegal here in Germany for - one would guess - obvious reasons. While I think that those who suffered sanctions due to the underlying law probably deserved it, I would rather have the law against "Volksverhetzung (incitement of popular hatred)", §130 StgB softened to make it legal in favor of free speech.

Not going to happen though. Even suggesting it would mean political suicide no matter from which side of the political spectrum you are (far right excluded, but what would you expect from them anyways). Imagine the headline "Holocaust denial now legal in Germany!" and the reaction from Israel, the jewish lobby on the one side, the applause from the likes of Iran on the other and you know that no one will touch the topic even with a long stick.

Zee
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Yeah, Germany is a special case for the reasons you mentioned. UK or pretty much any other country? No.
 
Bob001 said:
Interesting profession.
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It's not a profession any more than being an expert on West German child support legislation is a profession.

I'm a historian, I just happen to have some expertise on the history of denial.

Perhaps you could explain the foundation of Holocaust denial. The Holocaust is not only thoroughly documented, but countless actual participants -- both victims and perpetrators -- recounted their direct experiences and observations after the war. Even at the Nuremberg trials, the defendants claimed they were only following orders, not that the events didn't occur. I can understand that there might be some room for historians to legitimately debate particular details, like exactly how many victims or who did what where, but what argument could there possibly be that the Holocaust didn't happen?
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Because ideology is all it takes to cause a severe denial of reality, whether historical or present-day reality doesn't matter. If something threatens a worldview, this is often enough to cause ideologues and partisans to deny reality. Just look at parts of the Republican Party with their indulgence of Birtherism, or reluctance to accept global warming as a possibility.

Nazism, neo-Nazism, associated far-right ideologies, antisemitism, certain forms of anti-Zionism are all sufficient explanations for why a very small number have tried to deny the Holocaust.

A very few deniers do so out of contrarianism - much like there are Moon Hoaxers, since Moon Hoax theories have rarely been embraced for overtly partisan reasons.
 
ddt said:
Most if not all holocaust deniers are not able to write a dispassionate discourse claiming the holocaust didn't happen, but will put their pamphlets, brochures and what-have-you chock full of antisemitic rage.
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I actually haven't found this to be the case at all. One of the main points in favor of outlawing holocaust denial is that people who aren't well versed in history can easily be fooled by holocaust denial literature. Much of it is written soberly and dispassionately.

The biggest holocaust denial site on the web, The Institute for Historical Review, has loads of material written with a veneer of historical legitimacy and academic tone.

I still don't think holocaust denial should be outlawed, though.
 
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However, if you wanted to enact these laws just to get rid of David Irving, I will allow this one time exception ...
 
Ziggurat said:
.........Neither is a crime in the US.

I will concede this much, though: perhaps the British people aren't sufficiently responsible to handle free speech. Perhaps they are better off if their betters tell them what they are and are not allowed to say. If you want to argue that the British are not sufficiently adult for the responsibility, then I suppose I cannot contradict you.
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:rolleyes: Yawn.
 
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