Sexually abusing a child while Female

[Cain]

That you disregard or just marginalize the entire concept of meaningful consent being important.

You run the risk of infantalizing thirteen year-olds.

Even if the person was otherwise willing, how can we tell the consent was meaningful? Informed? Valid? Back to the robbery example, when there is gun pointed at you, even if you really were willing to give your wallet without it, how would anyone else be able to know?

By this standard, can you say thirteen year-olds have a choice to do their homework? I wonder if young males would prefer to do their geometry problems or **** their hot teacher... I know, it's all about the social pressure, man. Homework comes more naturally than the desire to mate with an attractive female. Besides, he's only feeling those feelings because she's in a position of authority, or something. It's "cultural baggage."

And how do we know if the youngster "wanted" it? Maybe he's been thinking about teacher with his hand. He's reported to have said to friends, "I want to **** her sooooo bad," and "I've been trying to bed Mrs. Robinson."

In these kinds of philosophical debates, people would rather choose self-righteousness than bite the bullet. Does torture/enhanced interrogation ever work? If the answer is "no," then the question is easily resolved. However, if the answer is "yes," or "sometimes," or "maybe," then a policy response is a little less obvious. However, even if it's true that torture works, it does not necessarily follow that we should legalize it.

I'm willing to accept qayak's anecdote at face-value: He had sex with an older woman at fourteen and there was virtually no down side for him personally, but it does not follow that such liasons should be allowed.

 

[Butter!]

I have absolutely no problem in withdrawing my accusation and apologise for upsetting you.

I read your statement completely the wrong way, in my defence it can happen without nuance.

That's okay. These are tense times.

 

[Cain]

If I may speak very plainly for a moment, I think the primary reason society at large treats sexual abuse by females less seriously is the penetration factor. Mentally, a non-penetrative abuser just strikes people differently. Obviously, this is objectively silly, since tons of abuse never involves intercourse or penetration anyway, but I think it's still at the heart of the notion. People think of a man as running around with a sexual weapon and a woman as being more of a vessel. They ignore aspects like intrinsic power dynamics, because they've conceptualized the power to rape as a very male quality.

You'll notice that the tone changes a lot in those instances where a woman uses an object of some sort to engage in penetrative rape. Yes, some people still make sick jokes about it, but they're less inclined to excuse the woman, and they're certainly not going to say, "Yeah, get 'er, kiddo!"

Physics aside, I'll add a couple other factors.

First, females bear greater consequences when it comes to sex (i.e., they can have babies). This is why differences in punishment have passed intermediate scrutiny. If a 15 year-old knocks up a thirty year-old woman, the woman can care for the kid. If a thirty year-old man knocks up a 15 year-old girl, the trajectory of her life could be dramatically altered.

As for positions of authority, it matters more for females than males. This is because social status figures prominently in female desire, and less so for males, who judge potential mates primarily on appearance. A man sees an attractive female, he generally knows if he's interested in her. "By the way, she's your new boss." "What's the problem?"

"By the way, she's a convicted a sex offender?"
"What's the problem?"

 

[The Norseman]

I'm the first to call that phrase being overused, but spot ******* on in this case.

I was going to say the opinions im seeing are basically " they could fry not being little pussies " but even that is social justice perfection compared to the opinions being stated.

I agree; it's almost always an overused and misapplied phrase but yeah... it's really a perfect fit for describing an overall acceptance or minimization of real harm that can occur simply because the victim is male and the rapist, female.

We also see a difference when the victim is male and the rapist, male as well such as the Catholic priest pedophile cases (though those are even more complicated due to the religious angle but I think it's safe to set that part aside for the purpose of my example).

The 'gun' is the power the rapist has over their victim in the form of being in a position of authority through being a teacher (or boss) and being an adult when the other is a child. That 'gun' can't be pointed away or unloaded easily. The child has not internalized the limits of the powers of teachers, bosses, nor adults, and even when someone has matured enough that they have, well, there is still power in those positions of authority.

Intimidation, silencing efforts, being successful doesn't mean squat. As Checkmate pointed out, asking a child if they wanted the sex is not a very good way to tell if they did, let alone passively waiting for complaints.

It's also interesting how much we tend to think of children as something to control rather than another equal human being which simply needs guidance. I've been doing some reading and it's again pretty frightening to me how much abuse and neglect happens and it's even barely noticed.

I really think we need to especially applaud the friend who called it weird and sick and wrong. That takes true courage and not the kind of crap that some people seem to think (that it's a courageous thing to go along with his abuser).

 

[Checkmite]

You run the risk of infantalizing thirteen year-olds.

They are literally children...?

 

[tyr_13]

You run the risk of infantalizing thirteen year-olds.

They are not infants. Interestingly however, they are also, you know, not adults.

By this standard, can you say thirteen year-olds have a choice to do their homework?

Of course they don't. That is literally an example of where power is given to a teacher to impose requirements enforced by penalties on a child. It is absolutely an example of something that adult could use to coerce a child into something like sexual relations. It is an example of the authority we invest in teachers, and parents, that children often don't conceptualize the limits of. You've chosen an example that advances my argument, so thanks.

I wonder if young males would prefer to do their geometry problems or **** their hot teacher... I know, it's all about the social pressure, man. Homework comes more naturally than the desire to mate with an attractive female. Besides, he's only feeling those feelings because she's in a position of authority, or something. It's "cultural baggage."

What a strange false dichotomy. First, it's possible to want neither, or both, and when is that a choice given to children?

That I've talked about the social pressures and authority aspects in no way means there are not other factors. Those other factors don't actually excuse or mitigate what I'm talking about. The way you're framing it, it is you that has the more absolutist take that it's not at all social pressures and authority. Yeah, just 'desire'. More on that below.

And how do we know if the youngster "wanted" it? Maybe he's been thinking about teacher with his hand. He's reported to have said to friends, "I want to **** her sooooo bad," and "I've been trying to bed Mrs. Robinson."

'Wanting' something is not the same as being willing to do that thing. I want to say some choice words about the people minimalizing boys being raped by women, but I'm not willing to.

Would you take an erection as evidence of consent? I wouldn't because it is not. And one of the reasons we limit the agency of children is specifically because they often 'naturally want' things that are very likely to turn out very badly for them.

In these kinds of philosophical debates, people would rather choose self-righteousness than bite the bullet. Does torture/enhanced interrogation ever work? If the answer is "no," then the question is easily resolved. However, if the answer is "yes," or "sometimes," or "maybe," then a policy response is a little less obvious. However, even if it's true that torture works, it does not necessarily follow that we should legalize it.

I'm willing to accept qayak's anecdote at face-value: He had sex with an older woman at fourteen and there was virtually no down side for him personally, but it does not follow that such liasons should be allowed.

And others would dismiss arguments as 'self-righteousness' rather than address the substantive arguments put forth. My calling qayak's attitude and arguments 'vile' doesn't make me right, but it sure a shooting does make me wrong either.

This isn't about his anecdote, not intrinsically. I specifically said that I wasn't going to question those details. It is possible for that to happen, but my entire argument is that, as you say, that doesn't follow that such things should be allowed. The fact that I've twice identified it as survivor bias means I acknowledge that some are 'survivors' (in the sense that the relations didn't harm them).

 

[cullennz]

You run the risk of infantalizing thirteen year-olds.



By this standard, can you say thirteen year-olds have a choice to do their homework? I wonder if young males would prefer to do their geometry problems or **** their hot teacher... I know, it's all about the social pressure, man. Homework comes more naturally than the desire to mate with an attractive female. Besides, he's only feeling those feelings because she's in a position of authority, or something. It's "cultural baggage."

And how do we know if the youngster "wanted" it? Maybe he's been thinking about teacher with his hand. He's reported to have said to friends, "I want to **** her sooooo bad," and "I've been trying to bed Mrs. Robinson."

I take it you would think this if the sexes were reversed?

 

[tyr_13]

I agree; it's almost always an overused and misapplied phrase but yeah... it's really a perfect fit for describing an overall acceptance or minimization of real harm that can occur simply because the victim is male and the rapist, female.

We also see a difference when the victim is male and the rapist, male as well such as the Catholic priest pedophile cases (though those are even more complicated due to the religious angle but I think it's safe to set that part aside for the purpose of my example).




It's also interesting how much we tend to think of children as something to control rather than another equal human being which simply needs guidance. I've been doing some reading and it's again pretty frightening to me how much abuse and neglect happens and it's even barely noticed.

I really think we need to especially applaud the friend who called it weird and sick and wrong. That takes true courage and not the kind of crap that some people seem to think (that it's a courageous thing to go along with his abuser).

Correct. We need to be mindful of the other effects of limiting their agency, and the power that comes with it. Not respecting that power and taking measures to prevent its abuse leads to the predictable outcomes associated with any lack of checks on power.

 

[Cain]

They are not infants. Interestingly however, they are also, you know, not adults.

I suggest you consult a dictionary for the definition of infantilizing.

I wrote: "I wonder if young males would prefer to do their geometry problems or **** their hot teacher... "

What a strange false dichotomy. First, it's possible to want neither, or both, and when is that a choice given to children?

This is a good example of standard operating procedure on this board, where people try to fashion themselves as thinking "skeptically," or "logically" rather than actually doing the real work of reading for comprehension and thinking rationally. Yes, it is indeed possible to want neither or both, but I asked which is preferred, so no, it's a false dichotomy along the lines you would pretend.

Incidentally, earlier you remarked that the coercion to do homework somehow strengthens your argument, but you were reduced to balkanizing my post, removing that leading question from its context. So, thanks. Try to read in paragraphs, not sentences.

Teachers must -- generally -- coerce students to do their homework. However, it's not mindbogglingly impossible to believe an attractive, young woman does not need to employ any coercion at all to get a teenage boy to **** her.

'Wanting' something is not the same as being willing to do that thing. I want to say some choice words about the people minimalizing boys being raped by women, but I'm not willing to.

More sophistry. Yes, it is true that wanting something is not the same as being willing, but is that the case here? This kid is sticking his dick in her reluctantly? And no, it does not follow that if he is enthusiastic and willing that it should be allowed for reasons explained here:

Would you take an erection as evidence of consent? I wouldn't because it is not. And one of the reasons we limit the agency of children is specifically because they often 'naturally want' things that are very likely to turn out very badly for them.

Given to their own devices, a fair percentage of teenage boys would prefer to eat Cheetos, play Fortnite, and watch porn.

 

[Ziggurat]

First, females bear greater consequences when it comes to sex (i.e., they can have babies). This is why differences in punishment have passed intermediate scrutiny. If a 15 year-old knocks up a thirty year-old woman, the woman can care for the kid. If a thirty year-old man knocks up a 15 year-old girl, the trajectory of her life could be dramatically altered.

If a 15 year old boy knocks up a thirty year old woman, the boy can be forced to pay child support. It's already happened before. So while I agree that there's an asymmetry to the situation, I think you're downplaying the potential negative consequences for the boy in that scenario.

 

[p0lka]

slightly offtopic:
Different countries have different rules regarding the whole age of sex thing yeah,
If you are from a country that puts it at 18 for instance, does that influence your opinion on countries that put it at say 16?
If someone has legal sex with a 16/17 year old, Do you judge them on your laws or theirs?

 

[sadhatter]

slightly offtopic:
Different countries have different rules regarding the whole age of sex thing yeah,
If you are from a country that puts it at 18 for instance, does that influence your opinion on countries that put it at say 16?
If someone has legal sex with a 16/17 year old, Do you judge them on your laws or theirs?

Arbitrary points are needed to avoid sick ***** from trying to muddy the legal waters when they get caught ******* children. It may not be a perfect system, but the only detriment is that possibly an adult doesn't get to **** a kid.

If the arbitrary point was way too high (30 or 25 or something) or too low ( 13, 8, 5) I'd advocate changing it, but as it stands I'd say most reasonable societies have hit in the general right area.

Hence why when someone tries to muddy the waters, I'm immediately suspicious and tend to write said person off.

 

[Cain]

Paging Joseph Heller...

So while I agree that there's an asymmetry to the situation, I think you're downplaying the potential negative consequences for the boy in that scenario.

Negative consequences the state would not have to take into account if the state had not imposed negative consequences. The guy should petition for custody (good luck), and then get payments from the former-lover.

 

[p0lka]

Arbitrary points are needed to avoid sick ***** from trying to muddy the legal waters when they get caught ******* children. It may not be a perfect system, but the only detriment is that possibly an adult doesn't get to **** a kid.

If the arbitrary point was way too high (30 or 25 or something) or too low ( 13, 8, 5) I'd advocate changing it, but as it stands I'd say most reasonable societies have hit in the general right area.

Hence why when someone tries to muddy the waters, I'm immediately suspicious and tend to write said person off.

Ok,
you didn't answer my question though,
If someone has legal sex with a 16/17 year old, Do you judge them on your laws or theirs? Is it ok?

You seem to be bunging your baggage at discussions.

 

[Cain]

Here's an abuse story that ends in tears from our own Tricky (he apparently checked the forum today, but is no longer nearly as active on these boards):

Miss Atkinson. Miss Atkinson was my 11th grade English teacher. She was fresh out of college, no more than 23 years old. She was pretty, but not gorgeous. Curvy but not stacked. But she loved poetry as I did. In Alabama, people who loved poetry were few and far between, so naturally we bonded. She would call on me in class to read a particularly poignant poem to the rest of the stodgy students. She'd come over to my desk with her textbook and lean over, to point out the poem to me. Did she know I was looking down her blouse? I think so. I think she encouraged it.

Since I didn't really need to study in the class to surpass the stodges, I sometimes spent the hour doodling a portrait of her in my notebook. I'm not a very good artist, so I really had to struggle to get her right. The creases of the ear. The curve of the eyebrow. I had to get them all perfect. I think she must have noticed, for why would a student need to erase so much when taking notes? One day as I was doodling, she crept up silently from behind. I'm sure she saw what I was doing, but she didn't say anything. She looked like she was avoiding my eyes after that.

The year passed and I languished in unrequited horniness. But life goes on. My senior year was about to start, and I needed to be more than just a poetry geek. So I decided to go out for track. I had never run track, but I was pretty fast at sprints. I knew I had to build endurance, though, so I started running. To inspire me to do this, I always ran past her house. It was a small town. Every day I ran and every day I looked at her house, hoping she would see me becoming a strong man.

It was August 19th. School was starting in a couple of weeks. It was miserably hot. But I ran anyway. As usual, I glanced at her house. She was on the porch. I probably stumbled, but I tried to slow down coolly and I called out, "Hi Miss Atkinson". She smiled broadly and waved back. I regarded this as a friendly gesture, so I walked up the sidewalk toward her house, shaking my legs and arms like I was a real athlete. "I'm sorry I'm not going to be in your class next year," I said. She gave a half smile, half grimace and said, "I'm not teaching here next year. I'm moving back to Michigan."

I was crushed. Not even able to see her at school? I was aghast. It must have shown. "I'll miss you," I choked out.

"I'll miss you too," she said. "I really enjoyed reading poetry with you. That was very special," she said quietly, "You have an incredible gift, you know."

"I just can't help letting my feelings out when I read poetry," I said. It was true. I couldn't. I was letting my feelings out pretty clearly right then.

"Let's read some more together". She invited me in.

"I must smell terrible," I said, "I'm dripping with sweat."

"I'll get you a towel," she offered. I toweled off and she brought out a book of poems called Some Haystacks Don't Even Have Any Needle. "This is an incredible book," she said.

It was. We took turns reading ee cummings, Robert Frost, W.H. Auden and many others. Not the usual famous ones, but obscure ones. It was so wonderful. "Here, read this one," she said, "I want to hear you do it." The poem was called Non sum qualis eram bonae sub regno Cynarae, written by Ernest Dowson. Look it up if you want to find out what it means. You might actually recognize one line. A famous book and movie were taken from it.

"I have forgot much, Cynarae. Gone with the wind."

But that line doesn't do it justice. It begins:

"Last night, ah, yesternight, betwixt her lips and mine
There fell thy shadow, Cynara! thy breath was shed
Upon my soul between the kisses and the wine;
And I was desolate and sick of an old passion,
Yea, I was desolate and bowed my head:
I have been faithful to thee, Cynara! in my fashion. "

Holy cow! Miss Atkinson (or Rita, as she now insisted I call her) had given me a love poem to read to her. I gave it the full theatrical treatment, complete with faux British accent. She was loving it! I finished up:

"But when the feast is finished and the lamps expire,
Then falls thy shadow, Cynara! the night is thine;"

Her eyes were full of tears. She looked up at me, that way, you know, with head bowed but eyes uplifted. It is that look that says "kiss me". I wasn't all that experienced, but some signs you can't miss. I kissed her. I folded the book on the table, put my hand on her cheek and kissed her full on the lips. She kissed back. Hard. With tongue. My other hand went around her back and we tilted toward the padded window seat in glorious liplock.

The window seat was fortunate. It was a cushioned ledge that looked out into the fenced back yard. The August sun shown in hotly. Not as hot as us though.

I can't write sex. I don't know if I want to. I was clumsy, seventeen years old, and little better than a rank virgin. It wouldn't make the pages of a Harlequin Romance. We wound up in the shower, now both sweaty. It was the best shower of my life.

I had to go. She knew it. I knew it. "When do you move," I rasped weakly.

"Next week," she said with well-controlled emotion.

"Can I come back tomorrow," I said pitifully.

"I'm going to be packing. And I will be gone a lot. And it wouldn't be fair to you."

I was seventeen and I was going to be a man. Men don't cry. I didn't cry. Then.

Later, I cried a lot. There are tears in my eyes now.

 

[Ziggurat]

Negative consequences the state would not have to take into account if the state had not imposed negative consequences.

Sure. But since it did impose them, it should take them into account.

 

[sadhatter]

Here's an abuse story that ends in tears from our own Tricky (he apparently checked the forum today, but is no longer nearly as active on these boards):

Deleatex

 

[sadhatter]

Ok,
you didn't answer my question though,
If someone has legal sex with a 16/17 year old, Do you judge them on your laws or theirs? Is it ok?

You seem to be bunging your baggage at discussions.

Read the middle paragraph, do the math. It's actually super clear.

 

[sadhatter]

Here's an abuse story that ends in tears from our own Tricky (he apparently checked the forum today, but is no longer nearly as active on these boards):

Cool illegal in some countries story bro. Go on some deep Web sites and im sure you could find a bunch more if that is your thing.

 

[p0lka]

Read the middle paragraph, do the math. It's actually super clear.

Ok,

Arbitrary points are needed to avoid sick ***** from trying to muddy the legal waters when they get caught ******* children. It may not be a perfect system, but the only detriment is that possibly an adult doesn't get to **** a kid.

If the arbitrary point was way too high (30 or 25 or something) or too low ( 13, 8, 5) I'd advocate changing it, but as it stands I'd say most reasonable societies have hit in the general right area.
Hence why when someone tries to muddy the waters, I'm immediately suspicious and tend to write said person off.

Re: the highlighted, I would disagree as I feel 14 is a bit too low.

You ******* advocating to **** 14 year olds and its ******* ok? you ******* *** ophile.