School shooting Florida

[quadraginta]

<snip>

It looks like just one student Hannah Carbocci is saying a bullet came through a wall. Both of your links reference her.

I think at this time we should say that this is unconfirmed until further notice.

I think at this time we should say that it is confirmed by at least one eyewitness, a high school student named Hannah Carbocci.

What you are asking for is additional confirmation.

I'm not sure why you see fit to cast such doubt on her reporting of what is a relatively trivial point. Cruz wouldn't even have had to be aiming at the walls for bullets to go through them, all he would have had to do is miss something which happened to have a wall behind it.

A typical school corridor wall is going to be rated for 1 hr. fire protection, and if it is a standard stud wall with sheetrock that means it will have 1 layer of 5/8" sheetrock on each side. That wouldn't even slow down a round from an AR15 noticeably.

Considering how many rounds he is supposed to have fired I'd be far more surprised if some bullets didn't go through walls.

 

[Bob001]

....
There is no way to make this mandatory as there are a dozen doors open around the buildings, I was never questioned or even looked sideways at while dragging a large "Airport Style" carryon I use for a tool box.

That's a problem that would be fairly easy to solve, at least in many buildings. Keep all doors except the main entrance locked to outside access, with alarms that would sound if opened from the inside (but still open to exit in emergencies). Keep front doors locked outside of the regular student arrival times, so visitors would have to be buzzed in from the office (which should have cameras on all the doors). That's not much different from what every movie theater does and it wouldn't cost much.

 

[MikeG]

I think there is a middle ground between Anything Goes when it comes to guns, and a total ban on private gun ownership.
Which is the problem. The extremists at both sides tend to dominate the debate.
Practically, a UK style firearms ban would never go over in the US. Now limitations on certain types of guns is another factor.
I also get annoyed with how some rabid anti gun people lump all firearms together. In their sight, a bold action hunting rifle with a five round magazine is just as heinous as a assault rifle....

Please read the thread, and the other current one in this sub-forum on UK arms. We don't have a firearms ban, at all.

 

[IanS]

I think there is a middle ground between Anything Goes when it comes to guns, and a total ban on private gun ownership.
Which is the problem. The extremists at both sides tend to dominate the debate.
Practically, a UK style firearms ban would never go over in the US.
Now limitations on certain types of guns is another factor.

I also get annoyed with how some rabid anti gun people lump all firearms together. In their sight, a bold action hunting rifle with a five round magazine is just as heinous as a assault rifle....

Re. the first highlight - why won't UK type legislation "go over" in the USA? Everyone here agrees that the current US government, the NRA and similar organisations, and most US gun owning enthusiasts don't want to have those sort of restrictions on the private use of guns in the US. But "don't want to" is not really a credible or honest argument in the light of how many innocent people are shot dead every year by people who "wanted" to keep owning and firing their guns.


Second highlight - the problem with any sort of bullet-firing guns, inc. your example of a "bolt action hunting rifle with a five round magazine", is that it's still very much a lethal weapon which can easily be used to murder several people in just a few seconds.

 

[Fudbucker]

Jeez, you know, it really gets my goat when people post rude **** like this. America is a giant country, perhaps too giant, and within said giant country are millions of people, in millions of varying situations, and with millions of alternating views.

I don't want to attack you or single you out, arthwollipot, but come on. Temper the sanctimony.

I am an American. I used to carry a gun. It made me feel better following an assault. Once I came to my senses after some time had passed, I got rid of it, legally. I now kind of regret ever contributing to the market. But I wasn't thinking about massive societal issues at the time, and neither are lots of current gunowners. You can certainly make the argument that we all should be, that it's time to wake up a bit, but to say Americans have a disdain for human life is unfair. It's really insulting. I don't care what you meant, you said "Americans." That is BS.

These shootings are shaking me to my core. What the hell do I have to do? "HASH TAG NOT ALL AMERICANZ, DURRR." Why did I have to be born into the country everybody hates? It makes these discussions irritating and personal, when they should be functioning on a much higher level.

Is Art wrong? Look at all the countries that have lower homicide rates than us.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Violent-crime/Intentional-homicide-rate

 

[dudalb]

As has been pointed out, there isn't a 'gun ban' in the UK. You can own all kinds of firearms but some are restricted.

But the restrictions are so tight as to amount to a de facto ban.

 

[Bob001]

.....
There is so many guns in US, only confiscate them all with proper paperwork would take months.
Also the idea itself is unrealistic. IMHO US needs incremental steps. But they should start. So far US did exactly nothing.
.....

Nobody is talking about "confiscating" any guns, which would basically be impossible anyway. But if specific guns like AR15s were banned for civilian possession, it would mean that anyone who kept one would be at constant legal risk. He couldn't hunt with it or take it target shooting or show it in public anywhere. If police found it in a routine traffic stop he would be arrested. If firefighters found it while they were saving his house, he'd go to jail. If he shot an intruder with it, he'd go to jail. People keep illegal substances, like drugs, in their homes and often get away with it. For awhile. But they often get caught, too. The average "law-abiding" firearms owner wouldn't want to take the risk.

 

[Butter!]

Is Art wrong? Look at all the countries that have lower homicide rates than us.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Violent-crime/Intentional-homicide-rate

Arth didn't say America has a ridiculous problem with guns and gun-murder that needs addressed, immediately and intensely. He said Americans have a disdain for human life. That is a sweeping generalization, untrue, and cruel.

I don't see how your numbers have a fig to do with what I posted.

 

[dudalb]

Re. the first highlight - why won't UK type legislation "go over" in the USA? Everyone here agrees that the current US government, the NRA and similar organisations, and most US gun owning enthusiasts don't want to have those sort of restrictions on the private use of guns in the US. But "don't want to" is not really a credible or honest argument in the light of how many innocent people are shot dead every year by people who "wanted" to keep owning and firing their guns.


Second highlight - the problem with any sort of bullet-firing guns, inc. your example of a "bolt action hunting rifle with a five round magazine", is that it's still very much a lethal weapon which can easily be used to murder several people in just a few seconds.

Thanks for proving my point.......

 

[MikeG]

I've been evacuated due to bomb threats twice, once in school (where I made the mistake of correctly guessing what was going on) and once in adult education, on both occasions there was nothing to distinguish it from a fire alarm, or drill, and hence there was no fear. My school days predate the Good Friday Agreement.......

Exactly. That's the point. We used to have bombs, when the IRA was active. The last must have been 25 years ago at a guess. We didn't have bomb practise in school in those days, so why anyone would think that we'd do it now when we aren't having any bombs is beyond me..........unless of course it's just pure ignorance.

ETA......I was playing a cricket match somewhere in the 1980s when the police stopped the game and ordered the crowd onto the field whilst they searched the stadium.

 

[Belz...]

Is Art wrong? I think he has a point. Look at the movies we watch, where kids see people casually blown away, yet if you show a nipple, you get an R rating.

But that's true everywhere else. So we have a disdain for fictional life. That's not a very convincing argument. In fact, it has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I've been evacuated due to bomb threats twice, once in school (where I made the mistake of correctly guessing what was going on) and once in adult education, on both occasions there was nothing to distinguish it from a fire alarm, or drill, and hence there was no fear. My school days predate the Good Friday Agreement.

In my experience fire alarms/drills, if they're done properly you don't know which is which at the time, are generally quite light hearted events with people expecting at worst a 'better safe than sorry' attitude to a small blaze to grant them an extended fag break/early day. This isn't to trivialize the dangers of a fire, but deaths in UK school fires are sufficiently rare that I can't recall any.

Active shooter drills on the other hand? The idea that your school needs to practice how to react if someone(s) are actively trying to kill you is nightmare fuel, and thats assuming that these drills are announced in advance.

When we lived in London in the 90s and early 2000s my wife worked in John Lewis on Oxford Street for a while. They had a bomb procedure.
A 'coded' message on the PA would alert them and they were supposed to do a 'clear down' and check for any unexplained bags or packages in their department.
A couple of times they had to evacuate the whole store.
It was anti fur trade activists that were the problem.
When I worked at Emap Elan on Seven Dials we had a bomb evacuation as a threat from fur activists was phoned in to one of the fashion magazine editorial teams.
Nothing was found.
We all had to assemble outside the building, a large tower block. I tried to point out that standing under all those glass windows when there was a suspect bomb was a bit stupid.

 

[MikeG]

But the restrictions are so tight as to amount to a de facto ban.

No. Please do some reading. There are about 2 million guns in circulation. The 3 houses I can see from my house all have a gun cupboard with regularly used rifles and shotguns. What you can't have (with trivial exceptions) are handguns.

 

[Nessie]

The NRA have said no reforms. So that's it till the next load of kids get killed and you can debate the topic some more.

 

[quadraginta]

Can you seriously imagine a cop actually shooting a defiant kid when they were evacuating the classrooms? Maybe whack the kid in the head or back with the rifle butt, even that seems incredibly unnecessary.

<snip>

Can you seriously imagine a cop ordering someone to show him their ID, and then shooting them when they reach for it?

It's alright if you can't imagine it, because you don't need to imagine.

Just read the news.

Considering the sort of behavior cops have exhibited dealing with kids in schools even when there isn't live weapons fire going on, I don't have the least difficulty imagining a cop shooting someone who challenges his supremacy (or even seems to) when there is.

And to make matters worse, this was a high school. Cops don't view high school students as "kids". They view them as probable thugs who just happen to be going to school.

 

[Andy_Ross]

But the restrictions are so tight as to amount to a de facto ban.

No they aren't there is an entire thread on it AND LOTS OF POSTS IN THIS THREAD.

I used to own rifles of various types over the years including a semi auto.


Please look through this thread and look at the UK firearms thread, there is no need to go over it all again.

 

[Andy_Ross]

trump seems set against Active Shooter Drills

Active shooter drills are very negative thing. If I am a child and I'm 10 and I say 'we are going to have an active shooter drill,' what's that? 'People may come in and shoot you.' I think that's a very negative thing."

I suppose seeing your teacher in a gun battle with a psycho armed with an assault rifle is a positive thing though.

 

[applecorped]

AR15 components can be 3D printed. No serial number. All legal.

 

[MikeG]

But the restrictions are so tight as to amount to a de facto ban.

I'm just going to ask you to back that up. It gets tiresome repeatedly indicating that the point you are making is utterly wrong. So, it's your claim that there is a de facto weapons ban here. Where's your evidence? You might want to answer in the appropriate thread.

 

[Butter!]

The NRA have said no reforms. So that's it till the next load of kids get killed and you can debate the topic some more.

Then **** the NRA. They are the ones who are demonstrating a lack of regard for human life. There are millions of us over here who hate what's going on. What do you lofty Europeans think WE should do about it? The little people? I didn't vote for Trump, I don't have a gun anymore, I cried at the GYM because of the stuff the survivors of Parkland were saying on the evening news. It affected me that much.

I know you didn't make the original comment about Americans that set me off in this thread, Nessie, but you have made similar ones before. So I'll ask you - what should someone like me be doing to prove I'm not some heartless American monster?

And if people really do believe that a lot of us want change, then why are the barbed insults always so generalized?