School shooting Florida

[Bob001]

There's a generational shift going on here. That's why the anti-gun backlash "feels different" this time. It may or may not have any different immediate results, but it's the trend for the foreseeable future.
.......

A case in point: the only firearm my own father ever owned was a collector's piece that he inherited late in his life, and he kept it disassembled and never attempted to fire it. Yet I heard him say this, more than once: "If every Jew in Europe had met the Gestapo at the front door with a gun in his hand..."
.....

Americans have always seen firearms as tools of self-defense. Those Colt "Peacemaker" revolvers were called "the great equalizer" in the old West. But the idea that armed citizens are going to fight off invading armies is a recent development, promoted heavily by NRA lobbyists who were heavily supported by gun manufacturers. It may have had something to do with the social upheaval of the '70s, and it might just have been a marketing tool to sell a new product. But the fantasy today is that AR15-slinging civilians are going to fight their own U.S. government when it inevitably becomes a dictatorship, and that fantasy has been supported by recent court decisions. But the Second Amendment requires interpretation, and for most of history it has been interpreted differently. Half of all U.S. firearms are held by three percent of the population (those are the guys getting ready for war); 80 percent of Americans own no firearms at all.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...rverted_the_meaning_of_the_2nd_amendment.html
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_.../second_amendment_allows_for_gun_control.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-industry-funds-nra-2013-1
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-nra-vs-america-20130131

 

[dudalb]

We used to have useless "duck and cover" drills in the USA in case of nuclear attacks, I think that's what he meant by bomb drills. Obviously both the UK and USA were under the same threat of nuclear attack during the Cold War. Apparently the UK just didn't feel it necessary to have silly "feel good" drills in schools back then.

In California many schools have "Duck and COver" drills...but this if a serious earthquake happens, where "Duck and Cover" could actually do some good.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

We used to have useless "duck and cover" drills in the USA in case of nuclear attacks, I think that's what he meant by bomb drills. Obviously both the UK and USA were under the same threat of nuclear attack during the Cold War. Apparently the UK just didn't feel it necessary to have silly "feel good" drills in schools back then.

He is a she, but no, I meant bomb drills. There was a rash of bomb threats called into schools for a while back in the day. We all had to evacuate the building while it was searched for suspicious items.

 

[dudalb]

From discussing the issues with American gun owners on this board and others, I have come to the conclusion that Americans simply have a disdain for human life that the rest of us don't share.

Someone is on his moral high horse, I see.

 

[William Parcher]

I said nothing about what you meant, I repeated what you said. If what you said doesn't correlate with what you meant, then you need to say things more carefully.

No, because context matters for meaning of what is said. You took what I wrote out of its context. I believe you did it on purpose because I suspect that you are a guy who sometimes carries a sword for role-playing events.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

In California many schools have "Duck and COver" drills...but this if a serious earthquake happens, where "Duck and Cover" could actually do some good.

Yes, the old duck and cover drills are different from today's duck and cover drills. I forgot about that.

 

[Belz...]

From discussing the issues with American gun owners on this board and others, I have come to the conclusion that Americans simply have a disdain for human life that the rest of us don't share.

Others, meanwhile, have a disdain for manners.

 

[dudalb]

I think there is a middle ground between Anything Goes when it comes to guns, and a total ban on private gun ownership.
Which is the problem. The extremists at both sides tend to dominate the debate.
Practically, a UK style firearms ban would never go over in the US. Now limitations on certain types of guns is another factor.
I also get annoyed with how some rabid anti gun people lump all firearms together. In their sight, a bold action hunting rifle with a five round magazine is just as heinous as a assault rifle....

 

[dudalb]

Yes, the old duck and cover drills are different from today's duck and cover drills. I forgot about that.

Still basic idea, get under your desk if possible.\
Which in an Earthquake is a standard drill. Earthquakes happen without warning, are over so quick that eveacuation of building is not a realistic possibility.Taking cover to protect against flying glass and other debris is common sense. Trying to get out of the building entirely could lead to more casaulaties.

 

[IanS]

If this were not such a deadly serious matter then some of the pro-gun responses here would be hilarious/laughable … the solution is not to have thicker armour plated doors or for school teachers to be armed, or for President Trump to support NRA calls for more armed guards at schools or to have their hand guns uprated to rapid fire assault rifles or to have more ineffective background checks and form-filling etc. All of that is quite obvious pro-gun madness (to put it mildly) …. the solution is glaringly obvious – the USA needs to have far less guns and bullets so easily available to the general public in their homes …

… the only obvious way for the US to do that, i.e. to very significantly reduce the availability of guns and bullets to ordinary private citizens all over the US, is to change the gun laws.

The US needs to change it's gun laws. How difficult is that to understand?

But they really don't WANT to. They want to be able to continue playing with their guns no matter the cost. That's why they are proposing throwing more guns at a symptom of a problem run amok instead of actually doing something about the problem itself.

The president's feigned interest at the listening session (he looked like he was bored and really didn't want to be there - probably missed a round of golf) said it all. He wants the problem to go away by looking like he's doing something.

Yes, it looks that way to me too …

… it looks as if the politicians (inc. the current president), and most gun enthusiasts, are really saying that the lives of other people such as the kids in that Florida school, are less important and just a price that has to be paid in order that people can carry on enjoying their hobby of playing around with loaded guns (guns that are really weapons of warfare).

 

[jimbob]

I think there is a middle ground between Anything Goes when it comes to guns, and a total ban on private gun ownership.
Which is the problem. The extremists at both sides tend to dominate the debate.
Practically, a UK style firearms ban would never go over in the US. Now limitations on certain types of guns is another factor.
I also get annoyed with how some rabid anti gun people lump all firearms together. In their sight, a bold action hunting rifle with a five round magazine is just as heinous as a assault rifle....

However a Canadian or a New Zealand style, or even a French or German style approach to firearms legislation would still allow fairly straightforward access to firearms.

Of course it might need some reinterpretation or amendments to the Constitution.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Did they not have duck and cover drills in the UK when you were a kid? Bomb drills? Fire drills?

Did they make you afraid your school would be bombed? I bet kids in the UK are more afraid now of bombs given current events there.

While you can't really separate the reaction from the action, I think the shooter drills are the least of kids' worries. News of another school shooting, however, probably does make kids very fearful.

Back in the 70s and 80s when the IRA were actually planting and detonating bombs in the UK we used to have the occasional 'bomb scare' when someone who wanted to get off a lesson would phone in a warning.

We were trooped out of the school on to the field and stood shivering for ten minutes.

I don't think we actually worried about bombs then and I am sure kids don't worry now.

 

[Fudbucker]

Others, meanwhile, have a disdain for manners.

Is Art wrong? I think he has a point. Look at the movies we watch, where kids see people casually blown away, yet if you show a nipple, you get an R rating.

 

[Bob001]

I think there is a middle ground between Anything Goes when it comes to guns, and a total ban on private gun ownership.
Which is the problem. The extremists at both sides tend to dominate the debate.
Practically, a UK style firearms ban would never go over in the US. Now limitations on certain types of guns is another factor.
.....

Nobody in the U.S. is seriously talking about a gun "ban." Reasonable people understand that firearms have legitimate purposes for hunting, target shooting and self-defense that are protected by the Second Amendment. But there is no good reason why anybody should be able to buy a gun without passing a background check, there is no good reason for any civilian to keep AR15-style semi-autos with high-capacity magazines, and there is rarely a good reason for a civilian to carry a concealed handgun. Reinstating the restrictions that commonly applied 50 years ago would be nothing like a ban.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I think there is a middle ground between Anything Goes when it comes to guns, and a total ban on private gun ownership.
Which is the problem. The extremists at both sides tend to dominate the debate.
Practically, a UK style firearms ban would never go over in the US. Now limitations on certain types of guns is another factor.
I also get annoyed with how some rabid anti gun people lump all firearms together. In their sight, a bold action hunting rifle with a five round magazine is just as heinous as a assault rifle....

As has been pointed out, there isn't a 'gun ban' in the UK. You can own all kinds of firearms but some are restricted.

 

[Ron Swanson]

However a Canadian or a New Zealand style, or even a French or German style approach to firearms legislation would still allow fairly straightforward access to firearms.

Of course it might need some reinterpretation or amendments to the Constitution.

I posted much easier in this thread how our "Canadian Style gun laws" would have had NO effect on this Florida shooting, and that is assuming the shooter wanted to only use a .223 semi auto rifle.

 

[crescent]

In their sight, a bold action hunting rifle with a five round magazine is just as heinous as a assault rifle....

Strawman argument, unless you can find a cite to support it. There are multiple people participating in this thread and others who know and understand the distinctions quite well and have stated so.

And again (and again and again and again and again and again and again...) very very few gun control proponents favor a total ban. I feel like a broken record stating that, but it still does not seem to get through.

You can find people who support a total ban. You can find people who think the earth is flat, or that Donald Trump is Jesus and Barack Obama is a space lizard. The internet is like that. That does not make any of those beliefs common or the least bit meaningful in any lawmaking or policy circles.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Out here in Vegas, I had to bring my kids something a few times. Just walked into the building via the main door, then walked into the office to drop it off. They weren't closed or locked. And the main door opens to a large open area and the cafeteria. It's a little scary, really. If someone just stormed in there at lunchtime, there would literally be hundreds of kids within 50 feet of the door completely exposed. Maybe that's changed in a couple of years, but I had to drop off something for my girlfriend a couple of weeks ago at her middle school and it was open as well.

The only time something like a metal detector wand was ever used were in certain schools while going to sporting events.

I've done service work in schools and universities in Ontario and Quebec ... and there is NO safety protocol on any school buildings besides a sign that says (ALL Visitors must report to the directly to the Office)

There is no way to make this mandatory as there are a dozen doors open around the buildings, I was never questioned or even looked sideways at while dragging a large "Airport Style" carryon I use for a tool box.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Astonishing that someone thinks A/ that a country where there are no bomb attacks would have bomb drills, and B/ that this is somehow on topic in a thread about school shootings in Florida.

I've been evacuated due to bomb threats twice, once in school (where I made the mistake of correctly guessing what was going on) and once in adult education, on both occasions there was nothing to distinguish it from a fire alarm, or drill, and hence there was no fear. My school days predate the Good Friday Agreement.

In my experience fire alarms/drills, if they're done properly you don't know which is which at the time, are generally quite light hearted events with people expecting at worst a 'better safe than sorry' attitude to a small blaze to grant them an extended fag break/early day. This isn't to trivialize the dangers of a fire, but deaths in UK school fires are sufficiently rare that I can't recall any.

Active shooter drills on the other hand? The idea that your school needs to practice how to react if someone(s) are actively trying to kill you is nightmare fuel, and thats assuming that these drills are announced in advance.

 

[Butter!]

From discussing the issues with American gun owners on this board and others, I have come to the conclusion that Americans simply have a disdain for human life that the rest of us don't share.

Jeez, you know, it really gets my goat when people post rude **** like this. America is a giant country, perhaps too giant, and within said giant country are millions of people, in millions of varying situations, and with millions of alternating views.

I don't want to attack you or single you out, arthwollipot, but come on. Temper the sanctimony.

I am an American. I used to carry a gun. It made me feel better following an assault. Once I came to my senses after some time had passed, I got rid of it, legally. I now kind of regret ever contributing to the market. But I wasn't thinking about massive societal issues at the time, and neither are lots of current gunowners. You can certainly make the argument that we all should be, that it's time to wake up a bit, but to say Americans have a disdain for human life is unfair. It's really insulting. I don't care what you meant, you said "Americans." That is BS.

These shootings are shaking me to my core. What the hell do I have to do? "HASH TAG NOT ALL AMERICANZ, DURRR." Why did I have to be born into the country everybody hates? It makes these discussions irritating and personal, when they should be functioning on a much higher level.