School shooting Florida

[Reheat]

Yesterday, it was reported that the armed SRO arrived at the building as the shooting was taking place, and did not go in to confront the shooter.

The local chief/sheriff was really going off on this, maintaining that the officer should have gone in to stop the carnage. (The guy, of retirement age, evidently quit)

Now, I’ve been to a lot of “active shooter” training over the years, and the paradigm of all the training has been NOT to go in alone. The ideal is 3-4 officers going in using a “diamond formation” small-unit tactics exactly as the military does.

Two officers would be a bare minimum. One pistol-armed officer going up against a suspect with an AR would have been at a severe disadvantage at best
Sounds to me like the guy was simply following existing protocol, rather than being cowardly.

I'm not in LE, but I'm under the impression that what you describe is ideal. I thought the prevalent tactic was for whomever arrives on the scene of an active shooter, even if one, is to confront the shooter. That does not mean be a gladiator, but seeking out the shooter using concealment as appropriate. This is based on the evidence that mass shooters will panic and stop once there is resistance, even if it is not overwhelming. Is that not the current philosophy on the best tactic?

I'm not advocating certain death for by being stupid about it, but using as much concealment and cover as possible to get within range with a handgun realizing that a handgun opposed to a rifle is very risky seems to be the prominent thought. Is this not true?

These folks are paid to do a job and they are armed.

 

[LTC8K6]

I'm not in LE, but I'm under the impression that what you describe is ideal. I thought the prevalent tactic was for whomever arrives on the scene of an active shooter, even if one, is to confront the shooter. That does not mean be a gladiator, but seeking out the shooter using concealment as appropriate. This is based on the evidence that mass shooters will panic and stop once there is resistance, even if it is not overwhelming. Is that not the current philosophy on the best tactic.

I'm not advocating certain death for by being stupid about it, but using as much concealment and cover as possible to get within range with a handgun realizing that a handgun opposed to a rifle is very risky seems to be the prominent thought. Is this not true?

My recollection is that the policy prior to Columbine was to wait for backup.

After Columbine it became confront immediately.

 

[pgwenthold]

It shouldn't offend men to have it pointed out that men represent a disproportionate amount of violent crime perpetrators. That is just a fact. On the other hand, a statement like, "Men are naturally violent" will get people's hackles up. (Don't believe me, look at any sexual abuse/harassment thread.)

Personally, what gets my hackles up are the men who give the impression that "men are naturally violent." They need to stop it.

I've said it before: if the defense of a group consists of "not all of them are like that" then that group has a problem. You can claim that "it's just bad individuals" but there are far too many "bad individuals."

I have no problem with a claim that "men are naturally violent." My response is not "not me!", it's, damn it, guys, stop doing that! Stop the violence!

You can say the same thing about bad cops. Of course there are plenty of good cops, but they need to stand up to the bad ones, too. In fact, I would think that the good cops would be at the front lines of getting rid of the bad ones. The bad cops are making the good cops look bad, too. Why do they put up with that?

 

[Dave Rogers]

State legislators in Florida advance Bill HB 839 which would require every public school in Florida to display "in a conspicuous place" the state motto, "In God We Trust."

Because the Second Amendment is sacred but the First is merely optional, presumably.

Dave

 

[William Parcher]

There are probably photos of the interior walls of this school on the web. Photos taken by students, faculty and the district for various reasons. I tried to Google on my phone for that using the name of the school. But it's flooded with brand new photos of everything except the interior. Maybe someone here can do the same search but specify only photos from before the shooting.

We might be able to determine the wall material by looking at photos.

 

[GnaGnaMan]

I think that when you put on a badge and carry a gun, then yes, you have accepted that you will be putting yourself at some extreme lethal risk. Standing down and watching till you are confident that you will personally be safe while others are being shot is not a reasonable position to take. I consider carrying a gun to entail a very serious commitment.

A guard like that probably gets paid a bit over minimum wage, AFAIK. From what I have read about mercenaries in Iraq, the usual pay grade for a private person involved in a gun battle is about 10 times that, or more.

 

[Thermal]

I'm minded to agree, but I don't think the officer is required to be flat out suicidal.

Agreed. I'm thinking more like engaging with a retreat plan in place. Doing nothing at all because there might be a dozen shooters is not reasonable. I would not expect one guy to go full-on John Wayne and charge, but nor would I expect him to stand idle. You carry a gun, and you better expect to engage in some very dicey situations in which you will be at great risk.

 

[Reheat]

My recollection is that the policy prior to Columbine was to wait for backup.

After Columbine it became confront immediately.

Yes, that was the point of what I wrote above. I'll wait for Bikewer to clarify, but your understanding is the same as mine...

 

[pgwenthold]

Obviously given the rarity of mass shootings at schools means we can never be certain any particular effort helps prevent these tragedies.

The scary part is, there are so many school shootings now that we actually almost have enough to have a decent-sized statistical sample, at least on a yearly basis.

The problem is that whatever is enacted would have to be done on a national basis, because that is where the statistical sample is large.

Sadly.

 

[Thermal]

A guard like that probably gets paid a bit over minimum wage, AFAIK. From what I have read about mercenaries in Iraq, the usual pay grade for a private person involved in a gun battle is about 10 times that, or more.

Which is a whole 'nuther problem. Jobs involving the ability to use lethal force should be, IMO, well paid and highly trained, and held to high performance standards. Police, armed security, all of them. Crazy to put someone in the position of killing or getting killed on a $10/hr gig.

 

[jimbob]

the kid had a "tactical vest" whether it was a bulletproof vest, it would look like it from a distance.

I am not the biggest fan of US law enforcement setup and training but it seems unreasonable to expect someone to go into a situation where their ears tell them they are outgunned and where their pustol might not work.

 

[William Parcher]

My recollection is that the policy prior to Columbine was to wait for backup.

After Columbine it became confront immediately.

Yes, I've read about that. The tactics have changed. Armed first responders are supposed to immediately engage the spree shooter. They are not even supposed to aid or comfort the injured. The underlying theory is that the shooter will continue to kill unless they are stopped somehow. Any time spent helping the injured or waiting is time when more are being killed or will be killed.

 

[Thermal]

the kid had a "tactical vest" whether it was a bulletproof vest, it would look like it from a distance.

I am not the biggest fan of US law enforcement setup and training but it seems unreasonable to expect someone to go into a situation where their ears tell them they are outgunned and where their pustol might not work.

Why then have armed security at all if he will not engage in unknown conditions? To wave guns at unarmed people? Advance with a plan to retreat if you find yourself in an indefensible situation seems reasonable. The 'well, it might be dangerous in there' argument should disqualify a person from carrying a weapon.

 

[LTC8K6]

the kid had a "tactical vest" whether it was a bulletproof vest, it would look like it from a distance.

I am not the biggest fan of US law enforcement setup and training but it seems unreasonable to expect someone to go into a situation where their ears tell them they are outgunned and where their pustol might not work.

Generally it's the confrontation alone that stops the shooter.

Meeting some armed resistance tends to end the situation one way or another.

A vest doesn't protect the head area or the vital leg arteries.

 

[William Parcher]

A guard like that probably gets paid a bit over minimum wage, AFAIK.

I am skeptical of the claim that Officer Peterson was being paid only a bit over minimum wage for his security work at the school.

 

[Worm]

Some very quick Googling find me job adverts for 'School Resource Officer' in FL being advertised at around $28 an hour, or ranging from about $35k - $50k per year.

BBC:

"The Sun-Sentinel newspaper said he had worked for the sheriff's office since 1985 and office records showed his salary for 2016 was $75,673 (£54,137)."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634

 

[Reheat]

I am skeptical of the claim that Officer Peterson was being paid only a bit over minimum wage for his security work at the school.

Correct. He was not a mall ninja. He was an employee of the Sheriff's Department. They make significantly more than minimum wage.

 

[Bob001]

A guard like that probably gets paid a bit over minimum wage, AFAIK. From what I have read about mercenaries in Iraq, the usual pay grade for a private person involved in a gun battle is about 10 times that, or more.

I note that the guy was a regular county deputy sheriff assigned to protect the school. He was a trained law enforcement officer with 30 years of experience who was paid $75,000+ a year. Not "a guard."
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...g/fl-florida-shooting-sro-20180222-story.html

 

[P.J. Denyer]

State legislators in Florida advance Bill HB 839 which would require every public school in Florida to display "in a conspicuous place" the state motto, "In God We Trust."

The bill's sponsor in the House, Rep. Kimberly Daniels, a Democrat from Jacksonville said "It is not a secret that we have some gun issues that need to be addressed, but the real thing that needs to be addressed are issues of the heart,"

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...hare&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social


So that's all right then.

Thanks for that link. I think I threw up a little in my mouth.

 

[MikeG]

There are probably photos of the interior walls of this school on the web. Photos taken by students, faculty and the district for various reasons. I tried to Google on my phone for that using the name of the school. But it's flooded with brand new photos of everything except the interior. Maybe someone here can do the same search but specify only photos from before the shooting.

We might be able to determine the wall material by looking at photos.

Why? Why would we, even if we could? You're labouring a trivial aside for pages, again. It doesn't matter a jot whether bullets can or cannot, did or did not, pass through internal walls in the school, and you haven't even bothered to explain why you are obsessing over it, or why it could make any difference to our knowledge of the incident. When a guys walks into a school with a war weapon and murders 17 schoolkids, the wall construction is trivial. Maybe you've forgotten that 17 kids died? Maybe you think the walls killed them?