School shooting Florida

[Belz...]

Not much different form those who used to think it was fine to have a beer while driving and saw no reason they should be harassed because a few people over did it.

I'm not sure drinking while driving has the same "giving up freedom" vibe.

 

[crescent]

Florida House Republicans voted down a Democratic motion to debate an assault weapons ban.

They are afraid to even debate it?

Failed by a 36-71 vote.

But that's okay, because they had a prayer for the victims.

 

[Babbylonian]

I'm not sure drinking while driving has the same "giving up freedom" vibe.

It's obviously not an essential Liberty like the right to own toys.

 

[a_unique_person]

I don't know. Eliminating all guns right now would just make them pop up again, unless you alter the laws of physics, which would presumably throw us back to the middle ages.

It's the same rationale used for preventing cutting CO2 emissions to minimize global warming. Do it for long enough then you can just say it's too late now anyway.

 

[a_unique_person]

Agreed. They might veyr well be correct that mental health issues are a major cause of incidents like this, but they are not helping by opposing such checks and restrictions.

The problem is that mental health issues are more prevalent than many people realise. Americans use a lot more anti-depressants and self medication than you would think.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...

Shall we demand an independent psychological evaluation of anyone attempting to purchase a gun? If anyone is seriously proposing that, you could talk me into it, but I don't see our friends over at the NRA jumping on board with such a proposal.

1) Lift the ban (however it is worded) on the CDC researching the problem and ways that might prevent these kinds of shooters.

2) Follow up on the FBI's thorough report on the School Shooter. Recommendations were made. Investigate which of those recommendations are being followed, which are not, why not, and where are the shooters still falling through the cracks.

3) Do an internal investigation of the local police and the FBI that did receive reports on Cruz and find out what were road blocks to intervention.

4) Obviously make getting assault weapons and large ammo clips harder to get. Surely some kid with the kind of issues this kid had would not have been able to get an AR-15 (or similar weapon) if it was a bit harder to do and he wouldn't have gone on this kind of rampage if it wasn't such low hanging fruit.

5) Like it or not gun lovers, there needs to be some kind of alert going out to the FBI with identified criteria depending on the findings of a decent study looking at red flags: depression and an accumulation of a small arsenal, for example, or accumulation of a small arsenal and bullet-proof vests. The red flag criteria need to be determined by evidence collected on mass shooters. The follow up when said red flags are reported need to be determined by research as to what interventions are likely to be effective.

6) Annually review these measures including a full review of any new mass shooters to update the plan.

 

[smartcooky]

Failed by a 36-71 vote.

But that's okay, because they had a prayer for the victims.

Patronising cowards!!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Newt Gingrich says that every school should have a minimum of 6-8 armed teachers who are trained in the use of firearms and are prepared to defend students.

Newt just wants to sell books, anything that gets him news coverage will do.

 

[Belz...]

It's obviously not an essential Liberty like the right to own toys.

Hey, don't try to convince me, I'm just the messenger. I'm trying to explain the differences in how people react to the idea of banning or restructnig one thing or the other.

 

[Travis]

Since the students who survived the shooting have vocally refused from the first day to let the pro-gun lobby use their grief as an excuse to put off any discussion about the problem of guns, the right has begun attacking the children themselves. For instance, one conservative blog is trying to discredit a particularly outspoken student because the boy's father is a retired FBI agent; other conservatives are insinuating that children being organized on social media and using hashtags is highly suspicious.

Gateway Pundit seems to be behind this. They also were quick to identify a totally innocent person as the shooter and made much of this person being a Hillary supporter.

I think they tried to take down the original headline but thankfully there are screenshots.

 

[Belz...]

It's the same rationale used for preventing cutting CO2 emissions to minimize global warming. Do it for long enough then you can just say it's too late now anyway.

That has absolutely no relation to what I said. Zero. I didn't make an argument that we shouldn't restrict or regulate guns because it won't solve the whole problem, or anything like that... did you even read my post in context? We're talking about a pretty wacky hypothetical.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

People here may recall an "amusing" case a year or two back in the US where a woman who was very actively pro-guns, and who iirc had posed for photographs with all her family holding a range of high-power guns, and who was locally very well known as campaigning for gun rights etc., was driving in her car to the local shops and she had her young 3 or 4 year old child on the back seat of the car ... she had also put her bag on the back seat with her loaded handgun in it ... the child found the gun an accidentally pulled the trigger with the result that he shot his mother through the back of the drivers seat!! ... [snip]

If this is the incident, she did not survive: Mother fatally shot by toddler who found gun in car, sheriff’s office says

But in searching for the incident, it appears this is not the only case of a toddler shooting its mother and not the only time it was fatal.

 

[smartcooky]

Only when American gun owners accept that they have to give up some of their "freedoms" for the safety and security of their society will there be any meaningful change.

The problem to me seems that Americans in general, especially in those parts of the country where most of the gun lovers reside, don't have any sense of society, community or the common good.....its all me, me me, what about me.

It seems Americans have forgotten the words of one of their greatest Presidents....

'....ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country'


(and before some smart Alec says it wasn't his words.. I know he plagiarised the first part from his school headmaster)

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Get black men to buy AR-15s. They'll be banned in a week.

Much truer than you think. The F.B.I.’s Dangerous Crackdown on ‘Black Identity Extremists’
Probably needs a thread of its own.

... As for the teachers, I hope they would get enough training to be effective in an active shooter situation, & that they would also be screened to filter out the ones who were irresponsible & murderers. Also, I would hope they wouldn't develop their own stop snitching culture.

Actually arming the teachers sounds lot more realistic than expecting the federal law to change. People keep thinking Wild West times are over. Well think again .. you got killed ? Means you were not fast enough with your gun. Oh you didn't even have a gun ? Poor you ..

This is nonsense. First, the cops responded to most of these shooter incidents within minutes. It's unlikely an armed 'good guy' on campus would have stopped a shooter any sooner. And second, it only takes minutes for someone with such firepower to take out dozens.

It's a fantasy that a good guy with a gun could have stopped most of these shooters.

There is an extremely intense fear among many gun enthusiasts that any form of registration will almost inevitably lead to large-scale confiscation. This fear is not limited to what would generally be considered extremists.

This paranoid mentality along with the slippery slope arguments are promoted by advertising and social media campaigns. Perhaps some of those should be exposed and countered with reality-facts.

Florida House Republicans voted down a Democratic motion to debate an assault weapons ban.

They are afraid to even debate it?

Especially with a busload of Stoneman-Douglas students on their way to the state capital.

Gateway Pundit seems to be behind this. They also were quick to identify a totally innocent person as the shooter and made much of this person being a Hillary supporter.

I think they tried to take down the original headline but thankfully there are screenshots.

I think I heard this kid on a news interview, he's a good speaker. He said something about regardless of who my parents voted for ... and went on to state his point. I expect this guy to go far.

 

[Civet]

Florida House Republicans voted down a Democratic motion to debate an assault weapons ban.

They are afraid to even debate it?

I'd be. In this political climate with survivors in the audience I'd see no political upside to having such a debate if I was planning to vote against the proposal. Being a cowardly sort, I'd probably skip the vote altogether and try not to be in the building when it went down. It looks like about a dozen guys didn't vote. That'd be me. It's okay though, the Florida House of Representatives has it's priorities in order.

 

[Polaris]

1) Lift the ban (however it is worded) on the CDC researching the problem and ways that might prevent these kinds of shooters.

2) Follow up on the FBI's thorough report on the School Shooter. Recommendations were made. Investigate which of those recommendations are being followed, which are not, why not, and where are the shooters still falling through the cracks.

3) Do an internal investigation of the local police and the FBI that did receive reports on Cruz and find out what were road blocks to intervention.

4) Obviously make getting assault weapons and large ammo clips harder to get. Surely some kid with the kind of issues this kid had would not have been able to get an AR-15 (or similar weapon) if it was a bit harder to do and he wouldn't have gone on this kind of rampage if it wasn't such low hanging fruit.

5) Like it or not gun lovers, there needs to be some kind of alert going out to the FBI with identified criteria depending on the findings of a decent study looking at red flags: depression and an accumulation of a small arsenal, for example, or accumulation of a small arsenal and bullet-proof vests. The red flag criteria need to be determined by evidence collected on mass shooters. The follow up when said red flags are reported need to be determined by research as to what interventions are likely to be effective.

6) Annually review these measures including a full review of any new mass shooters to update the plan.

None of this sounds unreasonable.

 

[Dr.Sid]

This is nonsense. First, the cops responded to most of these shooter incidents within minutes. It's unlikely an armed 'good guy' on campus would have stopped a shooter any sooner. And second, it only takes minutes for someone with such firepower to take out dozens.

It's a fantasy that a good guy with a gun could have stopped most of these shooters.

I was actually joking about the current state of US society. It really seems ridiculous from outside.

Anyway, armed opposition seems to help a lot, based on few cases when it happened. And police will never get there soon enough. But I don't see how to make it work. One armed guard would not help .. prepared shooter will kill him first (AFAIK Breivik did something like that).

Many airlines supposedly used armed guard onboard .. but it's easy to hide armed adult on a plane. It's hard to do it in a school.

If every teacher had a gun, maybe that could help. But that's hardly realistic. And what if student actually gets a gun from the teacher in the first place ?

But then, during the shooting .. I believe some of the teachers wished they had a gun. With a gun you have a chance. Without a gun .. you don't.

And as unrealistic as it seems, legal action seem even less realistic at the moment.

I just don't see solution. Get used to praying I guess ..

 

[Andy_Ross]

I just don't see solution. Get used to praying I guess ..

Or, maybe, you know ... get rid of guns?

 

[fagin]

...



Many airlines supposedly used armed guard onboard .. but it's easy to hide armed adult on a plane. It's hard to do it in a school.

....

I vaguely remember a TV programme starring a young Johnny Depp?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Chris Matthews just now: It's a shell game, focus on mental illness to take the focus off of gun regulations, then shift to the death penalty for this evil criminal, so much for better mental health care. He specifically called out Rubio.