School shooting Florida

[BobTheCoward]

Agreed. And plain nonsense should be excluded as well. Well "Eurostat" figures give a different picture.

The number of fatalities counted in road traffic accidents has fallen considerably over the last 20 years: EU fatalities fell by 43 % between 2005 and 2014. In 2014, however, the figure was roughly unchanged from 2013, at around 26 000, or around 51 fatal accidents per million inhabitants.​

No wonder you want to abolish Obamacare, if those medical error figures are realistic.Believe me I care if more than a million Americans are killed in traffic accidents every year, but only 26,000 EU inhabitants. That's fifty times more. Your gun crime death figure is only around ten times more I believe. I think you desperately need to ban cars as well as guns.

Another issue in the US debate is this weird obfuscation done by the pro gun side. When a policy comes up that would reduce generic gun deaths, they point out it does nothing for mass shootings, which are a small portion of gun deaths.

 

[smartcooky]

I was listening to the radio today and they were playing the "We call B. S." speech.

This time is different. These kids will make the difference. I don't know exactly how much different, but this time something is going to happen. Maybe not much, but something.

Just heard that this afternoon, and watched it again on youtube.

She is one courageous girl with loads of passion and anger... a dangerous combination. Its well past time someone publicly outed these politicians who take blood-money from the NRA. Make sure everyone in the USA knows who they are; yell their their names from the rooftops if necessary, especially around election time.

This group of survivors appears to have started something I haven't seen before after a school shooting... calling out the politicians whose activity (or inactivity) and selfish political expediency have allowed these things to continue to happen. I just hope the impetus started here continues. I think others here are right, this time it does feel different, the anger and frustration seems to be building to a critical mass - we saw in the 1960's with the Civil Rights movement and the anti-Vietnam war protests. I hope we are seeing it again.

#shameonyou #nomorebs

 

[smartcooky]

A factor that isn't talked about by the "they will use any weapon to kill" crowd is the relative safety of killing with a gun vs killing with a knife or with hands. This difference in the risks could definitely play into a decision by a potential murderer as to whether they will actually do the deed. There are studies that show that the further away from a target a person is, the easier it is for a person to kill or make the decision to kill.

Yep, this argument always remind me of this

Never, NEVER bring a knife to a gunfight

 

[tyr_13]

I was listening to the radio today and they were playing the "We call B. S." speech.

This time is different. These kids will make the difference. I don't know exactly how much different, but this time something is going to happen. Maybe not much, but something.

This time really does seem very different.

I was trying to figure out why this time has made me much more open about advocating for stricter gun controls. It's probably the social media connected nature of this one, as well as a personal and public sense of being fed-up with the excuses and feeling a lack of agency over government inaction on EVERYTHING else (so why not dispense with maneuvers and just say it?). That same social media connection makes for heartwrenching documentation as well.

But also on the more rational side, this attack and the Vegas one were ones that yes, for once, it would not have been nearly as successful with less capable guns. Sandy Hook could have been just as easily done with a single over/under shotgun. The Air Force base had other weapons that might have been used. The others had killers who were somewhat determined, skillful, or capable.

This one didn't. He would not have been as successful with other arms. He was not skillful. He was not apparently that determined. He couldn't even drive, or cook, or clean. He was never going to purposefully manage a bomb or the like. He didn't break other laws on the way to this slaughter. The only thing that really enabled him to do this was easy access to a reliable semi-automatic high capacity weapon.

Better gun control won't stop determined, skilled, clever killers. Those kind are very rare though. It won't even stop all the lazy, impulsive ones, but it can some and mitigate damage on others. Every hurdle is another chance to trip them up. If they can't legally have the weapon, they might be arrested before their murder plan. They might not be able to get the better guns. They might be forced to take other precautions that limit the damage they can do. They might try to make a bomb, which has even more hurdles. They might get caught trying to make a bomb, and arrest because it's illegal to have as well. They might fail at making a bomb. They might blow themselves up. They might make one that doesn't go off. All are 'might' but only one has to work, while the attacker has to pass them all. It inverts the situation between attacker and defender with firearms.

 

[MikeG]

Agreed.

This debate would go a lot better if hyperbole like didn't get dropped into it so much.
The odds of dying by murder by gun are still... pretty low on the list of things Americans need to individually worry about happening to them on a statistical level. American's murder rate is high, way, way too high no arguments but it's not like its really the thing most of us worry about on a day to day level. This idea that modern America is some country sized Laser Tag arena with live ammo is just silly.

If this is an average year 15,000 to 16,000 Americans are gonna die by murder, roughly 1/2-2/3s of those by gun violence. Yes that's way too high, stupid high, way past the point of solving the problem high.

But over, again if this year is average, 1.3 million are gonna die in traffic accidents (incidentally our rate of 13 deaths per 100,000 cars on the road yearly is below Europe's rate of 19 deaths per 100,00 cars on the road yearly) and 250,000 are gonna die due to medical mistakes.

Hell our actual overall mortality rate (8.10 deaths per 1,000 people a year) is lower than Spain, Norway, France, the United Kingdom, and even the glorious wonderful post-singularity socialist utopia of Sweden were all the hyper evolved space people have transcended their primitive mortal coils and are now one with cosmos which despite being a flawless place to live with zero problems that every country in the world needs to emulate manages to have a morality right higher than North Korea's, along with Italy, Japan, Germany and a bunch of other places I keep getting assured are safer and better places to live.

That's all good, apart from the made-up figures. Actually, about 35,000 Americans die in traffic accidents every year, or about 2.5% of the figure you claim. Still, trying to put things in perspective is sensible sceptical stuff, even if you stuff up the figures. Add a touch of humour, and that's great.........although I've picked out one sentence you might want to bear in mind for what comes next.

Like a lot of discussions I don't think people really care about the violence so much as see it as another go to have a jab at the backwater Americans.

I mean crap what do you European Master Race people care if a bunch of dumb Americans shoot each other? Isn't it pretty well established that we're not worth saving?

Right off the hyperbolic deep-end. Complete and utter twaddle. Listen to what you are saying.........you hate our guns so you hate America and Americans. That's so ridiculous it doesn't deserve a response.

 

[MikeG]

The number of people murdered with edged weapons worldwide is probably staggering. Thousands are slaughtered in Africa using machetes. One guy on a rampage can kill dozens.

Yeah, you've convinced me. "Probably staggering": I can't see how anyone could argue against that.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Yeah, you've convinced me. "Probably staggering": I can't see how anyone could argue against that.

It's like in a video game, don't have a gun, just hit the Y button and switch to a knife. You're just as deadly..........

 

[IanS]

I am a gun fan and I want guns out of lots of people's hands: criminals, the insane, the psychos, the very young, the not-competent-to use guns safely, related. And a number of still working police officers who should have been found guilty/arrested for unnecessary shootings/killings.

Whenever these US shooting incidents occur, the pro-gun side always says that the problem is not actually the guns, but instead the fact that the killer was said to be mentally ill, or psychologically disturbed, or that they obtained the guns illegally without the right permits etc. And then they say that hence the correct solution must be to stop mentally ill or criminal people from being given a license to buy guns .... but it's very obvious why that can never work to reduce the problem ...

... at the time when the person obtains a licence, they may indeed be able to show (at least on the application forms) that they are not currently on health records or criminal records as mentally ill or psychologically disturbed etc. But people change ... things happen in their lives which can, and often do, cause them to change their attitudes & behaviour very quickly ... people develop mental illness or serious psychological problems etc. … things happen in their lives which produce those dangerous changes (divorce, death of a loved family member in some seemingly unfair circumstances, being sacked from a job causing serious financial problems, or being expelled from school or college, or they may become obsessed with the idea of combating different ideologies such as Islamic terrorism, or things they regard as seriously unfair in the society around them, etc. etc.) …

… just because the person can get a licence one year, does not mean that by the next year that same individual will not develop some psychosis or illness or obsession that turns them into a lethal danger.

 

[TofuFighter]

You see ? And some say nobody wants to ban guns completely. Well there is one guy right here.

Oh sure, ban all guns.
Just don't come crying to me when Chuck Norris takes over your whole country coz it'll be too late.

Eta:

"Live and let live" only works if everyone agrees -otherwise, one nut who disagrees can take out a whole population.

This guy gets it. I think we know who you mean.

 

[Checkmite]

Since the students who survived the shooting have vocally refused from the first day to let the pro-gun lobby use their grief as an excuse to put off any discussion about the problem of guns, the right has begun attacking the children themselves. For instance, one conservative blog is trying to discredit a particularly outspoken student because the boy's father is a retired FBI agent; other conservatives are insinuating that children being organized on social media and using hashtags is highly suspicious.

 

[IanS]

I hate to be the pessimist but do you think that could happen without a significant-sized section of current gun owners considering it their patriotic duty to oppose it with a campaign of civil disobedience? I imagine they might even come up with some kind of snappy slogan about cold, dead hands.

Indeed, I do think US gun enthusiasts and the pro-gun lobby (e.g. NRA) would cause all sorts of civil disobedience, and I've said that myself several times earlier in this thread.

But you cannot run a country on the basis that certain sections of society must be allowed to carry on adding to the massive number of people being shot and killed or injured every year, simply because those people with guns will cause a huge amount of trouble if you try to stop them!

 

[TofuFighter]

Yeah, you've convinced me. "Probably staggering": I can't see how anyone could argue against that.

The WHO reported that in the whole of Africa in 2015, interpersonal violence accounted for 102,000 deaths. That's ALL manner of violence including guns, machetes, and swinging cactii.

The USA has roughly 10,000 deaths just from guns in 2015.

Africa is 1.2 billion people, roughly quadruple that of the States.

Maybe apples and oranges in terms of what's reported, but the same fruit in terms of law enforcement comparisons. Unless Americans start to consistently refer to their gun death stats as 'staggering', not much will change.

 

[Worm]

other conservatives are insinuating that children being organized on social media and using hashtags is highly suspicious.

Obviously, because if there's one group of people who know nothing about Social Media, it's teenagers...

 

[Nessie]

......

Throwing up one's ands and saying "It's all impossible!" is not a solution.

....

It is a solution to say, the guns are impossible to deal with, we need a coping strategy instead.

You need to be realistic, Sandy Hook drew a line which the USA crossed. When a mass murder of primary kids results in more time being spent on CTs claiming the kids are still alive and demands "now is not the time to discuss gun control", than positive action to bring guns back under control, it was proved it is impossible for the USA to have proper gun control.

 

[Nessie]

Since the students who survived the shooting have vocally refused from the first day to let the pro-gun lobby use their grief as an excuse to put off any discussion about the problem of guns, the right has begun attacking the children themselves. For instance, one conservative blog is trying to discredit a particularly outspoken student because the boy's father is a retired FBI agent; other conservatives are insinuating that children being organized on social media and using hashtags is highly suspicious.

More proof the USA can never control guns.

Instead of galvanising and cooperating, a section of the adults who could do something, goes on the attack against the children protesting about being shot up at school.

 

[Craig B]

Oh sure, ban all guns.
Just don't come crying to me when Chuck Norris takes over your whole country coz it'll be too late.

Eta:
This guy gets it. I think we know who you mean.

Are Theresa May and Angela Merkel European equivalents of Chuck Norris?

 

[Nessie]

Indeed, I do think US gun enthusiasts and the pro-gun lobby (e.g. NRA) would cause all sorts of civil disobedience, and I've said that myself several times earlier in this thread.

But you cannot run a country on the basis that certain sections of society must be allowed to carry on adding to the massive number of people being shot and killed or injured every year, simply because those people with guns will cause a huge amount of trouble if you try to stop them!

You can be pragmatic and accept there would be far more deaths trying to recover illegal guns (and some legally held ones which may no longer be considered acceptable for civilian possession) than there are gun deaths at the moment.

Its all part of coping.

 

[Andy_Ross]

.

I want to be able to buy a SCAR or an FAL one day, when I can justify blowing that kind of money. I want to go to a range from time to time when I'm not reading a book, writing something, building a model, etc. I'm okay with going through more extensive background checks and paying a (not unreasonable) fee to cover that. Why? Because I've got nothing to hide, and I know I'm not going to ever use it to open fire on a crowd of strangers - the same way you (the royal "you") know you're not going to decide to drive your car into a crowd of kids waiting for a school bus.
.

What you are advocating is a little bit of trimming around the edges and no real change because you want to own a military weapon as a toy.

You are accepting that the regular mass murder is a price worth paying for your toys.

 

[Nessie]

I just watched a video of a kid (HBO Sports) being refused cigarettes, alcohol and scratch cards because he looked too young and was challenged over his age. He was sold a bold action rifle. It was made about three years ago. There have been numerous mass shootings by kids since then.

More proof the Americans on this forum are being unrealistic to think the USA can or will do anything genuine and positive about mass school shootings.

 

[smartcooky]

More proof the USA can never control guns.

Instead of galvanising and cooperating, a section of the adults who could do something, goes on the attack against the children protesting about being shot up at school.

More proof that the NRA and its gun-nut hardcore don't give a rats arse about school kids being shot dead, just so long as they get to keep playing with their oversized substitutes for their undersized dicks.