Road Rage in the Southland

[Skeptic Ginger]

My post from another thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11890026&postcount=130
[snip]

None of that changes anything. The Nissan driver was young, we saw him overcorrect twice causing the part of the accident that was preventable.

Unless we had a video of the bump there is no way to say for sure the cycle rider's actions didn't contribute. We know he was a jerk by the witnessed road rage and his driving off.

Inexperienced driver vs jerk, we cannot say if the Nissan driver was 99% at fault or not, unless you are seriously biased anyway, which your page of defense of cycles driving between lanes suggests very strongly you are..

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

IMO the rider did something incredibly stupid that may or may not have caused the PV operator to do something incredibly stupid w/ potentially lethal intent, and after that things just got worse.

Lots of fault to go around but the fact the rider didn't stop tells me he didn't believe he was in the right. If I had the good luck to ride through an attempt to hit me while I was riding and that type of chain reaction accident went down, I'd want to bear witness on the spot.

That guy split quick.

So why are you appearing to claim that lane splitting didn't contribute to the bump, something we have no way of knowing at this point?

 

[BStrong]

None of that changes anything. The Nissan driver was young, we saw him overcorrect twice causing the part of the accident that was preventable.

Unless we had a video of the bump there is no way to say for sure the cycle driver's actions didn't contribute. We know he was a jerk by the witnessed road rage and his driving off.

Inexperienced driver vs jerk, we cannot say if the Nissan driver was 99% at fault or not, unless you are seriously biased anyway, which your page of defense of cycles driving between lanes suggests very strongly you are..

I don't exactly get if you think I'm somehow supporting the rider in this incident or trying to argue that the rider in the video did nothing wrong, but that isn't my intent at all.

I did link to my post concerning lane sharing. There's a pretty well crafted study funded by the State of California office of Traffic safety on the practice:

http://www.ots.ca.gov/pdf/Publications/Motorcycle-Lane-Splitting-and-Safety-2015.pdf

It may not change anything about this particular accident, but like the study notes, lane sharing, while safe, pisses off PV drivers no end.

At least that part of the study has been established as valid...in this thread.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Inexperienced driver vs jerk, we cannot say if the Nissan driver was 99% at fault or not, unless you are seriously biased anyway, which your page of defense of cycles driving between lanes suggests very strongly you are..

I think this is totally unfair.

I personally hate lane-splitting, but BStrong has been contributing vry fair and balanced observations and knowledge.

I consider what you said to be a personal attack, and totally unwarranted.

 

[BStrong]

So why are you appearing to claim that lane splitting didn't contribute to the bump, something we have no way of knowing at this point?

Again, where in the world are you getting this? Your post bears no relation to what I've posted in this thread.

What do you believe my position is after I've repeatedly described the rider's actions as "complete idiocy?"

Do you read that statement as approval of the riders actions? I don't give a **** what happened before the rider got on the left side of the PV because in doing so he acted so recklessly it is not in any way understandable for me - drivers have tried to hit me when I was riding. I ran away from them. That's what you do when confronted with a PV driver with murderous intent. This rider was acting like a complete idiot and he could have been the instigating factor in a fatal accident in doing so. Had he run away at 150 mph w/o damage or injury to anyone else that would be one thing. He did the opposite.

Is that clear enough for you to understand?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think this is totally unfair.

I personally hate lane-splitting, but BStrong has been contributing vry fair and balanced observations and knowledge.

I consider what you said to be a personal attack, and totally unwarranted.

I'm responding to the group of people in this thread that have made statements the Nissan driver was 99% at fault.

BStrong sounded to be supporting that POV by vehemently defending the lane splitting as if it was not evidence the cycle rider could have contributed to the bump.

He says he didn't mean that and I'll take his word for it.

 

[BStrong]

I'm responding to the group of people in this thread that have made statements the Nissan driver was 99% at fault.

BStrong sounded to be supporting that POV by vehemently defending the lane splitting as if it was not evidence the cycle rider could have contributed to the bump.

He says he didn't mean that and I'll take his word for it.

Really? I don't know what you were reading, but it wasn't my posts.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Again, where in the world are you getting this? Your post bears no relation to what I've posted in this thread.

What do you believe my position is after I've repeatedly described the rider's actions as "complete idiocy?"

That was after my post and if you posted it earlier, I didn't see it.

I posted the witness account of lane splitting and you launched into a rant about how safe lane splitting was, that is was legal, whatever, clearly that was an issue you had a strong opinion on.

I'm sorry if I misjudged. But if you go back and look at the sequence, your defense of lane splitting came right after I said it was evidence the cycle rider might (emphasis on might) have contributed to the bump.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Really? I don't know what you were reading, but it wasn't my posts.

I don't want to belabor this but how is this not claiming lane splitting is safe?

There is a study on the practice of lane splitting by motorcyclists:

http://www.ots.ca.gov/pdf/Publicatio...afety-2015.pdf

Result in a nutshell. Lane splitting is safe

 

[BStrong]

I don't want to belabor this but how is this not claiming lane splitting is safe?

Lane sharing is safe, and legal in California.

What I observe in the video that I posted as the OP is not lane sharing and I never made any representation that it was. We are talking about entirely different issues.

Whatever transpired before the video begins remains to be determined, as you noted. Even if the rider was lane sharing in a manner consistent with safe use of the technique and something went down between the PV driver and the rider, what we see in the video is not in any way lawful riding - and at risk of starting more misunderstanding but in the interest of honesty it does appears to me that the PV driver tried to take out the rider at that point - even then at best it's a confluence of idiots and there would be plenty of blame to go around, but I do not believe that the rider would be in any way justified in what he did in the video we have seen.

At this moment, the rider split from the scene of what he knew was an accident. He's already on the hook for that no matter what is later determined to be the facts.

 

[BStrong]

That was after my post and if you posted it earlier, I didn't see it.

I posted the witness account of lane splitting and you launched into a rant about how safe lane splitting was, that is was legal, whatever, clearly that was an issue you had a strong opinion on.

I'm sorry if I misjudged. But if you go back and look at the sequence, your defense of lane splitting came right after I said it was evidence the cycle rider might (emphasis on might) have contributed to the bump.

You misunderstood my intent across the board.

My post was not in any way intended to suggest that the rider in this video was in any way operating his bike in a safe, legal manner.

The study I linked to - in part - explains the difference between public perception of lane sharing v. the practice of lane sharing in in a safe reasonable manner and the risks involved.

At further risk of misunderstanding, this is what happened to my riding friend Julius in 1999:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Road-Rage-Driver-Jailed-His-truck-killed-2951208.php

Lane sharing and the giving a driver "the finger" cost Julius his life. The guy that did it had no priors, so it was misdemeanor vehicular manslaughter, under 90 days work furlough time.

Historically, riders lives aren't worth much.

That in no way excuses what the ******* in the video did -had he run, like I have done and Julius tried to do, that would be one thing, but he didn't.

I do have a very personal take in all this.

I hugged his wife at his funeral, and my girl hugged me after I almost got collected by a guy w/ no evil intent, but I had no way to avoid what happened to me on a surface street.

A freeway should be, and is different in California.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So to clarify, you have some issue with "lane sharing" being safe and those of us that might be pissed at some ignorant biker passing within inches of our side mirrors are poorly informed.

That said, you agree this biker may very well have done something unsafe contributing to the 'bump'.

I think we can agree on #2 and as I said, my apologies for thinking you were defending this biker who the evidence shows was at least partially at fault.

And I am very sorry for your loss and your friend's fate. I too have lost a loved one to dangerous driving.

As for #1, it's one thing if I'm stopped in traffic an a person on a motorcycle passes stopped traffic carefully, and not unsafely fast passes between cars. More power to that guy.

But as a longterm driver who has seen bikers do unsafe asinine things like passing fast moving traffic between cars, and who has seen asinine drivers cut in front of Mack trucks and motorcycles, I'm not ready to agree I want motorcycles thinking they own the space between lanes. Everyone should drive defensively, not drive as if they are entitled.

 

[BStrong]

So to clarify, you have some issue with "lane sharing" being safe and those of us that might be pissed at some ignorant biker passing within inches of our side mirrors are poorly informed.

That said, you agree this biker may very well have done something unsafe contributing to the 'bump'.

I think we can agree on #2 and as I said, my apologies for thinking you were defending this biker who the evidence shows was at least partially at fault.

And I am very sorry for your loss and your friend's fate. I too have lost a loved one to dangerous driving.

As for #1, it's one thing if I'm stopped in traffic an a person on a motorcycle passes stopped traffic carefully, and not unsafely fast passes between cars. More power to that guy.

But as a longterm driver who has seen bikers do unsafe asinine things like passing fast moving traffic between cars, and who has seen asinine drivers cut in front of Mack trucks and motorcycles, I'm not ready to agree I want motorcycles thinking they own the space between lanes. Everyone should drive defensively, not drive as if they are entitled.

The operator of a passenger vehicle at approximately 4000 lbs average including the driver is at far less risk from a vehicle with a combined rider and vehicle weight of 800 lbs max than the reverse, and the whole premise behind lane sharing is minimize the amount of time a rider is at risk of impact from the rear by a passenger vehicle while in stopped, or stop and go traffic.

Other than that we are in agreement.

Drivers and riders alike do incredibly stupid things. The fact is that any rider is at far greater risk from any passenger vehicle than the PV is from the motorcycle.

WRT lane sharing, as a driver you may get a broken mirror or scratched paint.

The rider could be killed. crippled or injured.

Risk/benefit analysis in consideration, I believe the rider has the compelling argument.

This rider in this incident has no claim to this argument.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The operator of a passenger vehicle at approximately 4000 lbs average including the driver is at far less risk from a vehicle with a combined rider and vehicle weight of 800 lbs max than the reverse, and the whole premise behind lane sharing is minimize the amount of time a rider is at risk of impact from the rear by a passenger vehicle while in stopped, or stop and go traffic.

Other than that we are in agreement.

It's a bit ironic viewing a video of a biker who caused a ~4,000 pound vehicle to crash and cause an SUV to rollover, all the while said ~800 pound motorcycle with more maneuverability escaped unharmed that you should cite size as the important variable.

Drivers and riders alike do incredibly stupid things. The fact is that any rider is at far greater risk from any passenger vehicle than the PV is from the motorcycle.

We are in total agreement here.

WRT lane sharing, as a driver you may get a broken mirror or scratched paint.

The rider could be killed. crippled or injured.

Risk/benefit analysis in consideration, I believe the rider has the compelling argument.

See my first paragraph.

This rider in this incident has no claim to this argument.

Again, perfect agreement.

 

[Matthew Best]

It's a bit ironic viewing a video of a biker who caused a ~4,000 pound vehicle to crash and cause an SUV to rollover,

The biker didn't cause the vehicle to crash, the driver of the vehicle caused it to crash when he veered at the bike and attempted to knock the biker off.

 

[applecorped]

The biker didn't cause the vehicle to crash, the driver of the vehicle caused it to crash when he veered at the bike and attempted to knock the biker off.

The car was asking for it

 

[Matthew Best]

Asking for what? I'm not sure I understand what point you're making.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The biker didn't cause the vehicle to crash, the driver of the vehicle caused it to crash when he veered at the bike and attempted to knock the biker off.

From where I am it looked to me like the door kicking caused the crash. The Nissan driver reacted.

You can blame that driver for reacting, and being a poor driver given he seriously overcorrected twice. But you can't, IMO, dismiss the door kick as if it had nothing to do with initiating the accident.

 

[Giordano]

From where I am it looked to me like the door kicking caused the crash. The Nissan driver reacted.

You can blame that driver for reacting, and being a poor driver given he seriously overcorrected twice. But you can't, IMO, dismiss the door kick as if it had nothing to do with initiating the accident.

Just for clarification: you're referring to the kick distracting and/or angering the driver? Not the physical force of the kick. Correct?

 

[Matthew Best]

From where I am it looked to me like the door kicking caused the crash. The Nissan driver reacted.

Yeah, he reacted. He reacted by trying to run the bike driver into the central divider and cause him physical damage in doing so. He deserves no sympathy.