Re: Underdown and Release Form (name changed at request of thread starter)

[RonSceptic]

I've heard him say that on many occassions during the shows. And each time I heard him say it was my opinion that it covered his butt. If he say's "father" and it was really the "grandfather" all he has to do is convince the audience and the sitter that they were 'like parents' to the sitter. I am sure that in some cases they were like parents, but I have seen sitters reluctently agree that "yea I guess she was like a mother to me."

Wouldn't it be much easier if the spirits just said, 'Hey It's me, Fred Smith!' Then we would know who was 'coming through'. Wonder why that nevr happens?

 

[Leroy]

Wouldn't it be much easier if the spirits just said, 'Hey It's me, Fred Smith!' Then we would know who was 'coming through'. Wonder why that nevr happens?

Or at least gave the initials F.R.E.D S.M.I.T.H

 

[thaiboxerken]

Are you suggesting that we should accept the most simplest explanation? What if we did that in all investigations?

Yes, Leroy, that is what we call Occam's Razor. Simple, in this case, really means mundane. We should stick with mundane explanations, or rule them out objectively, before we use explanations that assume JE has superpowers.

 

[Leroy]

thaiboxerken, your out of school early, or are you typing from class?

We should stick with mundane explanations, or rule them out objectively, before we use explanations that assume JE has superpowers.

I think we should investigate, first, the most obvious explanations, than move on if/when we have evidence that they can be ruled out.

Since some of these believers have had first hand experience and contact with John Edward, perhaps they have already ruled out fraud, and they have moved on to investigate other explanations. Just because you are behind doesn't mean they should wait on you to catch up *a little humor there incase you missed it*

 

[voidx]

Ummmm, thanks, Darat, I think...

I'm not sure I understand what you posted.

Voidx said (paraphrasing):

"Telepathy exists. There is no evidence it has a physical origin. Therefore its original is supernatural. Do you, neo, concede that this contravenes your belief?"

Neo responded (paraphrasing):

"Telepathy exists. I don't know where it originates. I've obviously said something inconsistent and unsupportable but will back off from it now with the disclaimer that I'm not a scientist. I will not, however, retract the claim itself."

Am I way close or way off?

I'd like to clarify my position here a tad. I'd have to go back and reread that whole thread to get the whole gist, but you're a little off in your summary here. Here is what I was putting to Neo:

IF telepathy exists, then there is still no evidence it has a physical origin, therefore its purely in the realm of the unverifable area of the "supernatural". Would Neo concede that there was zero concrete scientific proof for telepathy in the world as we know it, and that she in fact had to take her belief in telepathy purely on faith as there's no solid evidence for it being linked to the physical self.

She did not come right out and concede this, but did say that she didn't know of any evidence for telepathy and would leave it to the scientists and if she found anything tying telepathy to the physical brain she'd send the information my way. I don't imagine its a surprise that I haven't been sent any articles yet.

The reason its a tad disengenious to keep mentioning telepathy as the process of mediumship is because
A) its been shown you and no one else has any idea how its supposed to work, mediums descriptions don't hold up to any scientific (or hell, even logical) scrutiny so its all just hearsay
B) the entire concept of mediumship relies on the existence of telepathy/psi/esp. Since no one knows how it works, can show evidence it exists, demonstrate it concretely in a scientific setting, then isn't it safe to say that any belief in mediumship is completely wishful thinking and taken on faith at this point in time. There is no solid evidence. We can analyze transcripts till we're blue in the face, and while its kind of fun, it does nothing to prove telepathy. If anything, from all I've seen it simple suggests to me that what JE is doing more and more resembles and fits within the technique of cold-reading.

Basically you can believe in it if you want but I would ask that people believing in it acknowledge there's no solid proof for its existence, that it goes against what we currently know of how our world works, that it relies on an scientifically non-existant and currently unproven form of communication, and that in my opinion it doesn't hold up as reliably as the mundane explantions. So to me that would say that any belief in it, is based on some level of wishing it were true, and looking for evidences to support that.

 

[Ed]

I'd like to clarify my position here a tad. I'd have to go back and reread that whole thread to get the whole gist, but you're a little off in your summary here. Here is what I was putting to Neo:

IF telepathy exists, then there is still no evidence it has a physical origin, therefore its purely in the realm of the unverifable area of the "supernatural". Would Neo concede that there was zero concrete scientific proof for telepathy in the world as we know it, and that she in fact had to take her belief in telepathy purely on faith as there's no solid evidence for it being linked to the physical self.

To talk about the origins of something whose existance is questionalbe tends to legitimize it.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think we should investigate, first, the most obvious explanations, than move on if/when we have evidence that they can be ruled out.

Yes, the most obvious is that JE does not have superpowers. Is there any evidence that he does have superpowers?


Since some of these believers have had first hand experience and contact with John Edward, perhaps they have already ruled out fraud, and they have moved on to investigate other explanations.

They are believers, they've simply dismissed all other explanations because JE talking to the dead affirms their belief in the afterlife.

Just because you are behind doesn't mean they should wait on you to catch up *a little humor there incase you missed it*

I'm hardly behind. Fraud on JE's part has not been ruled out objectively. Cold-reading has not been ruled out. According to the laws of parsimony, the mundane explanations MUST be ruled out before one starts looking for paranormal answers.

 

[Leroy]

Yes, the most obvious is that JE does not have superpowers. Is there any evidence that he does have superpowers?

I haven't seen any

They are believers, they've simply dismissed all other explanations because JE talking to the dead affirms their belief in the afterlife.

Where is your evidence that they have dismissed ALL OTHER explanations?


Please give examples.

 

[CFLarsen]

Where is your evidence that they have dismissed ALL OTHER explanations?

Can you find one single explanation they seriously think is possible?

I can't. Hey, if I am wrong, show me.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I haven't seen any

Exactly.



Where is your evidence that they have dismissed ALL OTHER explanations?

Believers either:

1. Don't know of the mundane explanations, such as cold-reading, hot-reading and such.

OR

2. They know of these explanations and have dismissed them in favor of their beliefs.

That's all there is to it. Look at Clancie and Neo, they know about cold-reading and have dismissed that explanation in favor of their beliefs. They know that JE got caught cheating on 20/20 and have dismissed it in favor of their beliefs.

All believers fall into categories 1 or 2, and sometimes both.

 

[Dogwood]

That's all there is to it. Look at Clancie and Neo, they know about cold-reading and have dismissed that explanation in favor of their beliefs. They know that JE got caught cheating on 20/20 and have dismissed it in favor of their beliefs.

All believers fall into categories 1 or 2, and sometimes both.

You are quite mistaken tbk. There are a number of people who believe in ADC's but do not fit either of the two categories you describe. Even the infamous Clancie and neo have accepted cold and hot reading as possible explanations in some cases. RC also has modified his opinions of certain mediums over time as he continues to weigh the facts.

And although I personally feel that JE did hot-read Tony the cameraman, it cannot be said absolutely that he was "caught cheating". There is no proof, there is only circumstantial evidence.

 

[thaiboxerken]

You are quite mistaken tbk. There are a number of people who believe in ADC's but do not fit either of the two categories you describe.

Ok, then give me an example.

Even the infamous Clancie and neo have accepted cold and hot reading as possible explanations in some cases. RC also has modified his opinions of certain mediums over time as he continues to weigh the facts.

One is either a believer or not. Clancie and Neo are believers and, while they admit cold and hot reading are possible, they still dismiss them as explanations and prefer to believe that JE is really having conversations with dead people.

And although I personally feel that JE did hot-read Tony the cameraman, it cannot be said absolutely that he was "caught cheating". There is no proof, there is only circumstantial evidence.

He was caught on tape cheating, that's a fact and not an opinion. Anyone dismissing that as "just circumstantial" evidence is just ignoring facts.

 

[neofight]

She did not come right out and concede this, but did say that she didn't know of any evidence for telepathy and would leave it to the scientists and if she found anything tying telepathy to the physical brain she'd send the information my way. I don't imagine its a surprise that I haven't been sent any articles yet.

Hi, voidx. What I was referring to at the time, were studies that I had read about in some of Dr. Melvin Morse's writings. Even though I, personally, do not keep up with all this scientific research, I think I do remember Dr. Morse making references to experiments involving direct electrical stimulation of the right temporal lobe. If you would still like a link to something like that, I'm sure I can find it for you.

The reason its a tad disengenious to keep mentioning telepathy as the process of mediumship is because
A) its been shown you and no one else has any idea how its supposed to work, mediums descriptions don't hold up to any scientific (or hell, even logical) scrutiny so its all just hearsay
B) the entire concept of mediumship relies on the existence of telepathy/psi/esp. Since no one knows how it works, can show evidence it exists, demonstrate it concretely in a scientific setting, then isn't it safe to say that any belief in mediumship is completely wishful thinking and taken on faith at this point in time. There is no solid evidence.

Well, like I said, I am not familiar with what studies are or aren't out there, but for purposes of argument here on this board, I don't understand what the problem would be with using the "T" word. After all, mediumship, if it exists, uses psychic images and impressions to convey messages back and forth between a spirit energy and a medium. Another name for these psychic images/impressions would be telepathy, so what's the difference which term we used in our discussions? ......neo

 

[Garrette]

voidx,

Got it. Sorry for misunderstanding.

 

[neofight]

And although I personally feel that JE did hot-read Tony the cameraman, it cannot be said absolutely that he was "caught cheating". There is no proof, there is only circumstantial evidence.

Hi, Mark. You're right. It cannot be said that JE absolutely cheated on "Dateline". So what if Tony had expressed a wish earlier that day, for his deceased father to come through? Even on LKL at times the caller opens up with saying that they are hoping to hear from this or that family member. That doesn't mean that JE cannot go on to give that person a valid reading....neo

 

[Instig8R]

The problem is that JE was not forthcoming with the information that he had met Tony earlier and had a conversation with him about his father's death. JE was willing to allow Dateline to believe that he hadn't spoken to Tony in advance. He did not volunteer the information. He had to be asked about it, and then he finally confessed.

This is called lying by omission.

 

[neofight]

We later learned (in a post-reading segment) that Russ was supposed to be at the CO gallery, and gave up his ticket because he claimed he was too busy at the restaurant. Funny how the reading still went to him, via telephone. (Hint: The restaurant bears his name.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OUCH! it makes a skeptical mind wonder

Leroy, there are many instances when JE gets information for someone who is not there, and has the family in the studio call them up to deliver a message. Not all of these people had tickets but cancelled at the last moment, so I don't see how the Brunelli incident is such a cause of wonderment. ........neo

 

[neofight]

The problem is that JE was not forthcoming with the information that he had met Tony earlier and had a conversation with him about his father's death. JE was willing to allow Dateline to believe that he hadn't spoken to Tony in advance. He did not volunteer the information. He had to be asked about it, and then he finally confessed.

This is called lying by omission.

No, it's called "What's the BFD?", since it would never occur to an honest medium that reading someone spontaneously like that would result in people thinking he had cheated.

After the fact, using 20-20 hindsight, JE realized that he left himself wide open to this criticism, and I'm sure he wished that he had realized it in time to say something. Had he known in advance that Tony's dad was going to come through, he may have had time to think about the need to avoid the appearance of having cheated.

The reading, which consisted of more than one or two messages, would not have been less convincing had JEhad the presence of mind to issue a quick disclaimer before he went on with Tony's reading, so the logic the skeptics use here makes no sense. It would have been no big deal to do so. He didn't do it, because it never occurred to him to do it.


When did this happen? Two years ago? I can't believe that you guys don't have something more recent to put out there. ......neo

 

[Instig8R]

No, it's called "What's the BFD?", since it would never occur to an honest medium that reading someone spontaneously like that would result in people thinking he had cheated.

No, it's called lying by omission. JE is in a profession reknowned for fraud and cheating. An honest medium would know the importance of avoiding the appearance of impropriety.

 

[Dogwood]

You are quite mistaken tbk. There are a number of people who believe in ADC's but do not fit either of the two categories you describe.

Ok, then give me an example.

I gave you three. Neo, Clancie and RC have all expressed belief in mediumship in general, yet all have also admitted to the possibility of hot/cold reading on the part of several mediums, including Sylvia Brown, Robert Brown, James Van Praagh, Suzanne Northrop and John Edward. (I'll leave it to them to say which applies to who, as their opinions may have changed since last we spoke of it.)

One is either a believer or not. Clancie and Neo are believers and, while they admit cold and hot reading are possible, they still dismiss them as explanations and prefer to believe that JE is really having conversations with dead people.

No. Fence sitters on this issue abound. There are many whose opinions sway with each new claim and claimant. You can read the opinions of several such people over at tvtalkshows.

And although I personally feel that JE did hot-read Tony the cameraman, it cannot be said absolutely that he was "caught cheating". There is no proof, there is only circumstantial evidence.

He was caught on tape cheating, that's a fact and not an opinion. Anyone dismissing that as "just circumstantial" evidence is just ignoring facts. [/B]

I am ignoring nothing I assure you. Although I personally am convinced that Edward did cheat, his reading of Tony, and subsequent explanation of same, is consistent with his claims of the "process" he uses. His actions in that situation, though quite damning, do not constitute proof of fraud. Especially since "Anthony" and "father-figure" are hardly unusual hits for JE.