Re: Underdown and Release Form (name changed at request of thread starter)

[neofight]

If he comes through as a father figure, why can't that be a grandfather? If a grandfather is not a father figure, what is he then, in JE-terms?

(sigh) Claus, if he came through to Michael, he would obviously come through as his grandfather, because he was his grandfather.

If, on the other hand, he came through to Michael's mom or dad, the energy would come through as their father, because in life, he would have been their father and/or father-in-law.

A grandfather can be considered a father figure, true, but he would not come through to Michael O'Neill as a father figure, unless his grandfather had a rather major role in raising him. Capisce?

Have you ruled out hot reading? Have you ruled out the possibility that these references are neither specific or personal?

You may not care that JE tells the sitter information that can be found on the Internet, but you should. Doesn't that make you wonder, just a little bit? If he can cheat here, why not there?

Do you, after two years of discussion, still not understand what I think, Claus? Yes, I acknowledge that hot-reading in some cases would not be impossible for a fraud to commit. Do I believe that JE does it? Or even has the slightest need to do it? No, I do not. Chiaro?

It seems to me that you are arguing both sides here: That JE can get words, and JE can not get words:

Which is it? Does he get telepathic thoughts without words, or does he get words? If mediumship works by telepathy, and telepathy rules out words, how does he get words, then?

To which I say, ] Duh! Duh! and Duh!

You're the confused one, Claus. Not I. I am not arguing both sides. Let's try this again, JE gets images/impressions/emotions/thoughts etc. He sometimes gets words, but he hears them telepathically. If you were standing next to him, you would not hear what he hears, okay? How much clearer can I make it?

I would aso like to know what the nature of telepathy is.

In a sentence, it's the ability to communicate, one consciousness to another, without spoken words......neo

 

[Garrette]

Excellent, Neo,

then you no longer object to my point that the woman's son would be a hit both for her and for the neighbor, regardless which one showed up. JE could give the same reading to each and get a hit.

 

[neofight]

(I'm quite suprised to see her drop a reference to telepathy back into her posts reagarding JE. )

Why would I not mention telepathy, Darat. I'm not saying that I can scientifically explain how telepathy works, because we all know that I can't.

I can, and do, however, mention telepathy within the context of how mediums claim to communicate with those who have crossed over. Is the word verboten then? ......neo

 

[neofight]

Excellent, Neo,

then you no longer object to my point that the woman's son would be a hit both for her and for the neighbor, regardless which one showed up. JE could give the same reading to each and get a hit.

LOL Garrette. Why don't I mind these questions coming from you, but can't abide them when they come from Claus? I think my patience with Claus has been entirely exhausted. lol

Okay, let's do this once more.

Dearest Garrette, I never objected to the idea that the son's spirit energy could come through for someone other than for the mother herself. That's one point.

Another point is that I said that if JE brought through this son to the mother's neighbor, he would need to give her something a little more specific than, "I am getting a younger male that has crossed over." That is just a fact. You might not agree with it, Garrette, but I'm sorry. You are just flat out wrong here.

Consider this. What if this woman who had the neighbor who lost her son, also personally knew ten other people who had lost their sons? Now how the heck would she know which of these eleven mourning moms/dads to contact if JE never mentioned even a name or a cause of death???

Answer? She wouldn't. The information would be totally useless. Don't you understand that there has to be something solid to validate the identity of the spirit???? Get back to me on this! ....neo

 

[NoZed Avenger]

LOL NA! Hey, I answered Garrette's question!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By "quite often" I mean that it is not at all unusual....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep. And I think that is -precisely- what RC meant by very common -- "not at all unusual."

I think you both used the same (kind of careless remark everyone makes in casual speech) expression to say that you has seen it happen before and therefore knew it was possible (or not unusual). I just thought it was funny that both happened so close to each other, and you asked "exactly" what RC meant by the phrase -- after being on the receiving end of a similar question, I am sure you know how he feels.

It just tickled my funny bone.


N/A

 

[Garrette]

LOL Garrette. Why don't I mind these questions coming from you, but can't abide them when they come from Claus

Because I'm cute.

Another point is that I said that if JE brought through this son to the mother's neighbor, he would need to give her something a little more specific than, "I am getting a younger male that has crossed over." That is just a fact. You might not agree with it, Garrette, but I'm sorry. You are just flat out wrong here.

Consider this. What if this woman who had the neighbor who lost her son, also personally knew ten other people who had lost their sons? Now how the heck would she know which of these eleven mourning moms/dads to contact if JE never mentioned even a name or a cause of death???

Weeeellllll, now, little missy, I do disagree...

In my scenario, remember, I said younger male to the side. Are you saying that a sitter whose neighbor's son had died would NOT respond to that?

If you are, I think you're sorely mistaken.

But you knew that already.

 

[CFLarsen]

(sigh) Claus, if he came through to Michael, he would obviously come through as his grandfather, because he was his grandfather.

If, on the other hand, he came through to Michael's mom or dad, the energy would come through as their father, because in life, he would have been their father and/or father-in-law.

A grandfather can be considered a father figure, true, but he would not come through to Michael O'Neill as a father figure, unless his grandfather had a rather major role in raising him. Capisce?

Huh? Since when does this enter the picture? How big a role should a grandfather have, then?

Do you, after two years of discussion, still not understand what I think, Claus? Yes, I acknowledge that hot-reading in some cases would not be impossible for a fraud to commit. Do I believe that JE does it? Or even has the slightest need to do it? No, I do not. Chiaro?

I am fully aware that you reject the cases where JE has been caught cheating. You even ignore it, although he forces his audience to sign a contract that allows him to cheat.

You're the confused one, Claus. Not I. I am not arguing both sides. Let's try this again, JE gets images/impressions/emotions/thoughts etc. He sometimes gets words, but he hears them telepathically. If you were standing next to him, you would not hear what he hears, okay? How much clearer can I make it?

Apparently, I am not the only one who is confused here.

Try explaining how an "emotion" can be "heard" the same way a "word" can be, telepathically. Is there no limit to what JE can get, telepathically?

In a sentence, it's the ability to communicate, one consciousness to another, without spoken words......neo

But isn't JE "hearing" words?? You are not clear at all.

 

[neofight]

Because I'm cute.

I bet you are, too!

Weeeellllll, now, little missy, I do disagree...

In my scenario, remember, I said younger male to the side. Are you saying that a sitter whose neighbor's son had died would NOT respond to that?

If you are, I think you're sorely mistaken.

But you knew that already.

lol But again, I think you are mixing your references. John uses the terms *below* the sitter to mean someone younger, *to the side* to indicate a contemporary, and *above* to represent someone older, a parent, grandparent, aunt or uncle etc.

You are combining those two things, younger, AND to the side. See what I mean?

And you didn't respond to my point that if this woman knew of more than one young person who had died, how on earth could she be sure this was her neighbor's son who was coming through????????? ......neo

 

[neofight]

Huh? Since when does this enter the picture? How big a role should a grandfather have, then?

Uh, like, since forever, dude! A grandfather comes through as a grandfather, that is, unless he has had a major role in the upbringing of the child. (the sitter). That means, in case you are still clueless, that the grandfather, if he came through to O'Neill as a "father" figure, which he did not do, btw, would have had a considerable "hands-on" role in raising that child. If not, he simply comes through as the grandfather.

I am fully aware that you reject the cases where JE has been caught cheating. You even ignore it, although he forces his audience to sign a contract that allows him to cheat.

*Cheating* is only some skeptics' idea of what happened in the "Tony the Cameraman" incident. John did nothing but read the man. The fact that Tony had already told him that he would like to hear from his dad does not negate all the rest of the messages that Tony got from JE. According to Tony, those other things that JE said to him were accurate.

Apparently, I am not the only one who is confused here.

Try explaining how an "emotion" can be "heard" the same way a "word" can be, telepathically. Is there no limit to what JE can get, telepathically?

Here's where I lose my patience with you, Claus. How many times do you have to be told that JE receives feelings/impressions/emotions via clairsentience, not clairaudience or clairvoyance? Can't you get up to speed and at least stop acting like you are hearing these things for the very first time, every time you hear them, regardless of how many times it's been?

And if others are confused as well, then they must share your learning disability. I'm not saying they have to buy into these explanations, but at least try to be familiar with what JE says is how he gets these feelings. Sheeesh! I'm ready to throw in the towel with you, Claus........neo

 

[CFLarsen]

Uh, like, since forever, dude! A grandfather comes through as a grandfather, that is, unless he has had a major role in the upbringing of the child. (the sitter). That means, in case you are still clueless, that the grandfather, if he came through to O'Neill as a "father" figure, which he did not do, btw, would have had a considerable "hands-on" role in raising that child. If not, he simply comes through as the grandfather.

Please point to where JE describes/explains this. Sorry, but I have to be sure that you are not simply making this up.

*Cheating* is only some skeptics' idea of what happened in the "Tony the Cameraman" incident. John did nothing but read the man. The fact that Tony had already told him that he would like to hear from his dad does not negate all the rest of the messages that Tony got from JE. According to Tony, those other things that JE said to him were accurate.

JE cheated, neofight! He used previously obtained information to score a hit!

Here's where I lose my patience with you, Claus. How many times do you have to be told that JE receives feelings/impressions/emotions via clairsentience, not clairaudience or clairvoyance? Can't you get up to speed and at least stop acting like you are hearing these things for the very first time, every time you hear them, regardless of how many times it's been?

No, no, no...you are so wrong: He specifically says:

KING: What -- do you see something, or do you hear? What...

EDWARD: I think a big misconception with this work is that people think that a psychic or a medium -- I'm seeing them like I'm seeing you.

And I can only speak for myself. I don't want to speak in broad strokes for every medium that's out there, of which there are many around the world that are equally as talented who might not ever sit in front of a camera or write a book or go on the radio, they just do their thing.

But I don't see them the way I'm seeing you, because they're not of the physical world. They're vibrating at a higher frequency. It's kind of like taking a helicopter blade, you know, when it's not airborne, you can look and see there's four or five blades. Once it takes off and those blades are moving at an accelerated rate, at a higher frequency, you can't really see it, yet we know it's still there.

It's kind of like that. And I will see images in my mind. I will hear things, thoughts in my mind. And I will get clear sentient feelings.

So basically I'm seeing, hearing and feeling energy that I'm interpreting in my own frame of references. Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong.

He clearly gets it all, neofight. Do you have anything you want to recant?

And if others are confused as well, then they must share your learning disability. I'm not saying they have to buy into these explanations, but at least try to be familiar with what JE says is how he gets these feelings. Sheeesh! I'm ready to throw in the towel with you, Claus........neo

I suppose you want to re-familiarize yourself with what JE says.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Here's where I lose my patience with you, Claus. How many times do you have to be told that JE receives feelings/impressions/emotions via clairsentience, not clairaudience or clairvoyance? Can't you get up to speed and at least stop acting like you are hearing these things for the very first time, every time you hear them, regardless of how many times it's been?

Only in the minds of believers, Neo. Let's talk reality, JE is a cold-reader. He's just an entertainer.

 

[Instig8R]

(sigh) Claus, if he came through to Michael, he would obviously come through as his grandfather, because he was his grandfather.

If, on the other hand, he came through to Michael's mom or dad, the energy would come through as their father, because in life, he would have been their father and/or father-in-law.

A grandfather can be considered a father figure, true, but he would not come through to Michael O'Neill as a father figure, unless his grandfather had a rather major role in raising him. Capisce?

This explanation is not satisfactory... I have frequently complained about the wiggle-room that JE invokes with his "above - to the side - below" semantics.

For example, I have noticed that JE will connect the sitter with someone "above" them... a parent, parent-figure, etc. Then, JE will say that he's getting another entity that he will describe as being "to the side".

However, JE doesn't indicate whether he is referring to an entity to the side of the sitter or to the side of the spirit of the parent, parent-figure previously mentioned.

This is really widening the net, and it seems to go unnoticed by believers. In most instances for the sitters on CO, it's pretty easy to guess that the parents of deceased parents will be dead. However, if the sitter also has a deceased brother, sister, cousin, friend, etc., JE gets an opportunity to make a hit that seems not as easy to guess.

 

[neofight]

Please point to where JE describes/explains this. Sorry, but I have to be sure that you are not simply making this up.

No, Claus, I am most assuredly NOT making it up. JE explains this just about every time it comes up in a reading. If JE tells the sitter that he is getting a father or mother figure coming through, and the sitter tries to claim the energy as his grandfather or grandmother, JE always refuses to accept that answer, unless that grandparent had a vital role in bringing them up.

That is, the grandparent would have had to have raised them, lived in the same house as them, been there as though in a parent roll. Otherwise, it doesn't fly. Ask anyone who is familiar with the program, and they will verify this.

As a matter of fact, this very issue came up in the reading that JE did for celebrity Wayne Brady. JE brought through a mother figure, described by John as a "stern lady", but Wayne said that his biological mother was still alive. It did turn that he was raised by his grandmother, however, and not his natural mother, and the grandmother was the energy that was coming through for him, as "mom". Brady credited this stern woman with helping him become the man he is today.

quote]JE cheated, neofight! He used previously obtained information to score a hit![/quote]

I repeat, knowing that Tony's father was deceased, does not take away from the reading that JE gave the cameraman. It's not his fault that Tony mentioned his deceased father, okay? When the father energy came through, JE passed on information that Tony found to be meaningful and accurate, over and above the basic fact that he had lost his dad.

No, no, no...you are so wrong: He specifically says:........He clearly gets it all, neofight. Do you have anything you want to recant?

You are being deliberately obtuse here, aren't you, Claus? You do realize that my answer was in direct response to your very specific comment, viz: "Try explaining how an "emotion" can be "heard" the same way a "word" can be, telepathically."

I am very well aware that JE is clairvoyant, clairaudient, and clairsentient. You had asked me to explain how he "heard" emotions, and I explained to you that he did not "hear" them, he "felt" them, clairsentiently, so please stop your attempts at
obfuscation. They are embarrassingly transparent, and quite irritating as well. Not to mention, inexcusable, Claus. Will you ever grow up? .......neo

 

[neofight]

This explanation is not satisfactory... I have frequently complained about the wiggle-room that JE invokes with his "above - to the side - below" semantics.

Perhaps to you and some other skeptics, Instig8R. I find this explanation to be both satisfactory and consistent with how JE and even other mediums claim the process works.

For example, I have noticed that JE will connect the sitter with someone "above" them... a parent, parent-figure, etc. Then, JE will say that he's getting another entity that he will describe as being "to the side".

However, JE doesn't indicate whether he is referring to an entity to the side of the sitter or to the side of the spirit of the parent, parent-figure previously mentioned.

This is really widening the net, and it seems to go unnoticed by believers.

It probably goes unnoticed because the *widening of the net* that you bring up is just about non-existent. Perhaps if you could be a little more specific, and cite an actual example of what you are describing, we could all take a look at it and comment.

In any case, short of that, I think that it is usually taken for granted that when JE mentions "below", "to-the-side", or "above", he is speaking to the status of the spirit in relation to the sitter.......neo

 

[CFLarsen]

No, Claus, I am most assuredly NOT making it up. JE explains this just about every time it comes up in a reading. If JE tells the sitter that he is getting a father or mother figure coming through, and the sitter tries to claim the energy as his grandfather or grandmother, JE always refuses to accept that answer, unless that grandparent had a vital role in bringing them up.

That is, the grandparent would have had to have raised them, lived in the same house as them, been there as though in a parent roll. Otherwise, it doesn't fly. Ask anyone who is familiar with the program, and they will verify this.

As a matter of fact, this very issue came up in the reading that JE did for celebrity Wayne Brady. JE brought through a mother figure, described by John as a "stern lady", but Wayne said that his biological mother was still alive. It did turn that he was raised by his grandmother, however, and not his natural mother, and the grandmother was the energy that was coming through for him, as "mom". Brady credited this stern woman with helping him become the man he is today.

neofight...when I ask you to point to where JE explains this, I mean where it can be checked. Where, in his book "Crossing Over", does he describe this?

I repeat, knowing that Tony's father was deceased, does not take away from the reading that JE gave the cameraman. It's not his fault that Tony mentioned his deceased father, okay? When the father energy came through, JE passed on information that Tony found to be meaningful and accurate, over and above the basic fact that he had lost his dad.

It doesn't "take away" from the reading? Would Tony have gotten the reading, had he not told JE about his dad? You really believe this?

You are being deliberately obtuse here, aren't you, Claus? You do realize that my answer was in direct response to your very specific comment, viz: "Try explaining how an "emotion" can be "heard" the same way a "word" can be, telepathically."

I am very well aware that JE is clairvoyant, clairaudient, and clairsentient. You had asked me to explain how he "heard" emotions, and I explained to you that he did not "hear" them, he "felt" them, clairsentiently, so please stop your attempts at
obfuscation. They are embarrassingly transparent, and quite irritating as well. Not to mention, inexcusable, Claus. Will you ever grow up? .......neo

neofight, please: Could you address the point, instead of attacking me personally? I pointed out that there was a clear conflict between what you claimed JE had said, and what he actually said.

Address this, and stop your incessant personal attacks on me, please.

 

[Instig8R]

In any case, short of that, I think that it is usually taken for granted that when JE mentions "below", "to-the-side", or "above", he is speaking to the status of the spirit in relation to the sitter.......neo

Hey, neo-- I have been keeping track of how often JE is vague about whether JE is referring to the sitter or to the spirit when he starts saying "above, to the side, and below". He is seldom as specific as you seem to be suggesting.

I am sure I can easily find a snippet from a transcript which will show that JE is vague as to the relationship between sitter and spirit.

I'll be back with one shortly.

 

[neofight]

neofight...when I ask you to point to where JE explains this, I mean where it can be checked. Where, in his book "Crossing Over", does he describe this?

I'll repeat, he explains it every time such a matter comes up in a reading. People who watch the show will know this. If you cannot take my word for it, then don't. Perhaps RC and/or Clancie will chime in when they can and tell us if they've heard JE say this before. I know I have, and several times, not once, the latest example as I cited was the Wayne Brady reading. I hate when I have to repeat myself.

It doesn't "take away" from the reading? Would Tony have gotten the reading, had he not told JE about his dad? You really believe this?

Why in the world wouldn't he have? If his dad wanted to come through, he'd have found a way, yes.

neofight, please: Could you address the point, instead of attacking me personally? I pointed out that there was a clear conflict between what you claimed JE had said, and what he actually said.

Address this, and stop your incessant personal attacks on me, please.

I did address the point, Claus. I responded in a very specific and effective manner, and it was ingnored by you, as per usual. When you begin playing the victim, it's always because I've made a good point, and you want to avoid addressing it. Ask me if I care?

Look, Claus! See that towel in the ring? Guess who threw it there????
..........neo

 

[neofight]

Hey, neo-- I have been keeping track of how often JE is vague about whether JE is referring to the sitter or to the spirit when he starts saying "above, to the side, and below". He is seldom as specific as you seem to be suggesting.

I am sure I can easily find a snippet from a transcript which will show that JE is vague as to the relationship between sitter and spirit.

I'll be back with one shortly.

Thank you, Instig8R. That should help a lot. I'll try to check in again after my husband and I get back from dinner, or if not, later on tonight. .....neo

 

[Instig8R]

Here's one intance of JE being non-specific that jumped out at me:

JOHN EDWARD:

" - Um, I'm going to say that I have an older female that's coming through that to me would be like Mother, or Mother N Law. There's some type of acknowledgement that the month of Feburary has a connection or the 2nd of a month is either a birthday or an anniversary from what they are showing me. Either she is telling me that she has her son with her or she's got a younger male figure that has crossed over, but she's got the
younger male who's there. That to me would be like a younger brother, son, grandson. Younger male figure is connected to Mom from what they are showing me. So, I don't know if they are trying to tell me it's your Mother's who's passed, but they are acknowledging the older female. Do you understand that?"

The above doesn't depict the exact behavior that I was trying to describe in my earlier post, which is far less obvious than the above fishing expedition. If I can't find anything in the transcripts posted, I will write it down the next time I see it occur on CO.

In the meantime, if anyone wants a good laugh on this rainy Saturday night, visit JE's sci-fi site, and play the celebrity readings.

 

[Iamme]

Hi Instig8R---I am curious as to "if the shoe fit''. I tried the questions on me, as simple as they are. There is no fit, for anyone in my direct family. There is a lot of February connections and a birthday on the 2nd, but no correlating death of either an older female with a younger male joining her, or, just the death of a younger male.

It IS kind of fun, to play along with JE's readings, to see if you can ever make what he says, fit you and/or your family. Even if you include Aunts, Uncles and cousins that you feel are close to you in heart.

I think I'll just go out and get one of those shirts, that says, "Bite Me" on it.