Re: Underdown and Release Form (name changed at request of thread starter)

[TLN]

"Fictionalized?" That's a lot different than just saying it's edited.

So....How are you specifically saying they "fictionalize" the CO readings?

By editing to connect different Edward questions with different answers, making a miss look like a hit. The document leaves the door wide open for this which is why nothing seen on "Crossing Over" is submissable as evidence for or against Edward.

 

[Darat]

Hi Darat,

"Fictionalized?" That's a lot different than just saying it's edited.

So....How are you specifically saying they "fictionalize" the CO readings? [/B]

I am not making a claim that they do fictionalise anything just that we now know they reserve that right when they get people to sign the release form. With that in mind we cannot just assume that they don't exercise that right.

That is why I say anything being used from a CO programme as "evidence" for JE's claimed ability to communicate with the dead needs to be independently (i.e. not from the production company) verified that what is shown is an accurate and faithful reproduction (within the remit of TV shows) of what happened.

We now know (thanks to you ) that everything could be "fictionalised", to assume that the producers don't "fictionalise" the show is just that, an assumption.

Don’t forget the words of the release even explicitly mention the word “fiction”, which is why I used “fictionalised”.

From the appearance release supplied by Clancie. – 1st paragraph – bold by me.


…snip…

;it being understood that the program or any derivative works thereof may contain factual and/or fictional scenes, action and dialogue.

…snip…

 

[voidx]

I am not a cynic and I look at that and think, "hmm, hot reading." I can give JE the benefit of a doubt too. Where is your doubt when it comes to JE? Does he do anything that causes you to sometimes doubt him?

This is a fantastic point. Clancie and Neo, care to comment? I was of a mind initially that JE was just cold-reading, and not talking to the dead, although I was as always open to being shown wrong. However in the long course of discussions here I have seen example after example of things that show me that JE seems to be every bit the cold-reader. While you can try and explain away all these things, are you both saying that nothing JE has done has ever caused you even a moments doubt in his abilities? Not the LKL readings, not a poorly done reading? Are you saying at this point you can explain away all his seeming poor performances and have zero doubts in his abilities at all?

 

[Leroy]

It's not just a stereotype, it's an observation.

Hmmm. Let's say I observe that most black people I encounter like rap music. I then say, 'All black people like rap music, or are consciously suppressing their preference for rap'. This IS NOT a justified statement, and it is indeed a stereotype, not an observation. This is what you're doing. Observing a trend for a group is not an excuse for judging all people of a group to be that way; people are simply far more complicated than this.

I noticed that Thai didn't comment on this.

 

[CFLarsen]

Silly boy, don't answer a question with a question. Where is the evidence that they dismissed ALL OTHER explanations.

First, spare us the condescending tone.

Second, I cannot find any evidence that they accept any other explanation. Usually, when skeptics look for answers, other skeptics help out where they possibly can. Perhaps you could be so kind as to show me where I am wrong?

 

[Leroy]

I am wondering how anyone can still be quoting CO TV shows as evidence to support what JE claims he can do. We now know that anything (and indeed everything) we see on CO could have been edited or fictionalised. By the agreement the production company makes people sign before they can appear any "evidence" from the show would have to be independently collaborated before we can even begin to assume it hasn't been "fictionalised".

I agree, but I don't think I've met any believers who think that the show is evidence of JE's abilities.

Originally posted by Darat I also think that anyone who starts with an assumption that anything shown on CO is “true” or evidence for JE’s claims should consider the following:

The show is produced by a “for profit” company

To be profitable the show has to be able to attract an audience (ratings) that is attractive to advertisers.

Ratings can be achieved by "better & bigger" shows which could include specials with celebrities or "special" hits. (I admit this is an assumption however I believe there is some evidence to support this. Consider how JE & the other producers totally misjudged the public mood when they tried to use the terrible events of September 11th to their own advantage to create interest/publicity for their show.)

The show has no obligation to produce a factually accurate retelling of a reading.

I agree with that

 

[Leroy]

Originally posted by Leroy - Where is your evidence that they have dismissed ALL OTHER explanations?

Originally posted by CFLarsen Can you find one single explanation they seriously think is possible?

Originally posted by Leroy - Silly boy, don't answer a question with a question. Where is the evidence that they dismissed ALL OTHER explanations.

originally posted by CFLarsen - I cannot find any evidence that they accept any other explanation. Usually, when skeptics look for answers, other skeptics help out where they possibly can. Perhaps you could be so kind as to show me where I am wrong?

You're still are not answering my question. I didn't ask you if you could find evidence that they accept other explanations. I asked where your evidence was that they DISMISSED ALL OTHER explanations?

Just because you can't find any evidence that they accept any other explanation, doesnt' mean that they have dismissed ALL OTHER explanations, does it?

 

[Clancie]

Posted by voidx

While you can try and explain away all these things, are you both saying that nothing JE has done has ever caused you even a moments doubt in his abilities? Not the LKL readings, not a poorly done reading? Are you saying at this point you can explain away all his seeming poor performances and have zero doubts in his abilities at all?

Hi voidx,

In answer to your question, of course I have doubts about JE. I have doubts about mediumship in general; I've said that many times.

Its just that cold/hot reading doesn't completely make sense to me either as an explanation for some of what JE does--or, more to the point, as an explanation for some things other mediums have done as well.

 

[voidx]

Hi voidx,

In answer to your question, of course I have doubts about JE. I have doubts about mediumship in general; I've said that many times.

Its just that cold/hot reading doesn't completely make sense to me either as an explanation for some of what JE does--or, more to the point, as an explanation for some things other mediums have done as well. [/B]

Are there specific readings, cases, that come to mind that caused you doubt that he was using mediumship, and that perhaps he more resembled cold-reading?

 

[Clancie]

Yes, but you all can think of those examples, too. Much of "CO" could be said to be indistinguishable from cold reading--in isolation. Nothing special to elaborate on about that.

Its the parts that don't fit the cold/hot reading explanations that are of most interest to me. Because I think whatever theory one has--mediumship OR cold/hot warm reading--should be 100% consistent in explaining every aspect of the readings.

And, so far, I haven't seen a theory that has that consistency--not "mediumship" and not "cold/warm/hot reading".

That's why I say, "There may be something to mediumship" rather than, "Mediumship is real."

 

[TLN]

Its the parts that don't fit the cold/hot reading explanations that are of most interest to me. Because I think whatever theory one has--mediumship OR cold/hot warm reading--should be 100% consistent in explaining every aspect of the readings.

It's television.

And, so far, I haven't seen a theory that has that consistency--not "mediumship" and not "cold/warm/hot reading".

That's why I say, "There may be something to mediumship" rather than, "Mediumship is real."

It's television.

 

[Clancie]

TLN,

Check out Steve's SPR sources and others. JE and the handful of television mediums are not the only mediums around....

 

[TLN]

Check out Steve's SPR sources and others. JE and the handful of television mediums are not the only mediums around....

Sure. Any of them non-anecdotal? Any scientific studies I can view, complete with data and testing procedure?

 

[CFLarsen]

Did anyone notice that Clancie didn't answer the question? She merely said that she had doubts about JE, she never said what it was.

It can't be cold reading because there is "Nothing special to elaborate on about that." It can't be specific readings, because we can "all can think of those examples, too".

The issue is not what makes Clancie believe there "might" rolleyes be something to mediumship. The issue is what makes Clancie believe there might not be something to mediumship.

So, what is that? Clancie cannot say. Instead, we get a reversal of the question, the same old tirade, as well as an attempt at redirecting the discussion towards SPR.

Nice try, Clancie.

 

[voidx]

Yes, but you all can think of those examples, too. Much of "CO" could be said to be indistinguishable from cold reading--in isolation. Nothing special to elaborate on about that.

So you agree then that at times what JE does is indistinguishable from cold reading? In Isolation doesn't make much sense to me. Each reading should stand on its own merits. Either he's talking to the dead or he isn't. I haven't been given a convincing scenario that explains in detail why he should have such difficulty with ADC that he can't understand or comprehend a message everytime. See to me, if he's cold-reading, then yes, it makes sense that he misses sometimes, is average on hits others, and rarely (and I think even you'd agree his "special" hits are rare) he gets a very good hit. If he's communicating with the dead, I don't buy it, I'm not convinced that there's this "the pyschic line is bad" problem.

Its the parts that don't fit the cold/hot reading explanations that are of most interest to me. Because I think whatever theory one has--mediumship OR cold/hot warm reading--should be 100% consistent in explaining every aspect of the readings.

What if as he's cold-reading he luckily hits first try and a very specific piece of info? I don't know, my problem is that you seem more times to be defending JE than critiqueing him, yet to me, Its much more likely he's cold-reading the majority of the time than doing real mediumship, so I'm always confused as to why you lean more in the mediumship direction. Because to me my opinion that he's cold-reading seems much more consistent, than the mediumship angle. Can I safely say you disagree and think that mediumship is the more consistent of the 2 explanations?

And, so far, I haven't seen a theory that has that consistency--not "mediumship" and not "cold/warm/hot reading".

That's why I say, "There may be something to mediumship" rather than, "Mediumship is real." [/B]

Yes but I think this avoids a certain aspect of the question. Which do you find more likely? That its mediumship, or cold-reading. You responses and defences of JE would lead me to believe you lean more towards real mediumship. Me looking at all the available transcripts and LKL readings and the like can't imagine how you could think that's more likely than the cold-reading scenario.

 

[CFLarsen]

Leroy,

I answered it: I can't find any examples where they accept any other explanation. That is my answer. You may like it or you may not like it. But that is my answer.

Now, please answer mine: Can you show me where I am wrong? Just yes or no.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by voidx

So you agree then that at times what JE does is indistinguishable from cold reading?

Yes, I've said that. The difference is that I feel there are various possible explanations for that--only one of them being cold reading.

I haven't been given a convincing scenario that explains in detail why he should have such difficulty with ADC that he can't understand or comprehend a message everytime.

I know. But I think if mediumship is real, there's no reason why communication would be so straightforward and so easy all the time as you expect. It makes sense to me that "the process" would be difficult (if there is a process ).

See to me, if he's cold-reading, then yes, it makes sense that he misses sometimes, is average on hits others, and rarely (and I think even you'd agree his "special" hits are rare) he gets a very good hit.

I do agree with you that his great special hits are relatively rare. But I think the hits that don't seem consistent with cold reading techniques are quite commonplace.

Because to me my opinion that he's cold-reading seems much more consistent, than the mediumship angle. Can I safely say you disagree and think that mediumship is the more consistent of the 2 explanations?

No. I think they're both inconsistent.

Yes but I think this avoids a certain aspect of the question. Which do you find more likely? That its mediumship, or cold-reading.

Well, I would have said "cold reading" except that (1) there are many things in his readings that imo aren't explained as cold reading; (2) I find the hot reading theory weak; (3) mediumship remains a possible explanation for the "unexplained".

You responses and defences of JE would lead me to believe you lean more towards real mediumship.

Seriously, I just don't know. You could say it's all cold reading, but to me, when I look at the details of many readings, the things that don't appear to be cold reading have to be explained some other way. I think mediumship remains a possibility and should be considered as such.

 

[CFLarsen]

Still no answer from Clancie on "What makes you doubt JE".....

 

[TLN]

You could say it's all cold reading, but to me, when I look at the details of many readings, the things that don't appear to be cold reading have to be explained some other way. I think mediumship remains a possibility and should be considered as such.

I'd love to see just one of these "details" that isn't...

1. An anecdote
2. From a television show that wasn’t broadcast live
   [/list=1]
   Do you have any of those Clancie?

 

[voidx]

Yes, I've said that. The difference is that I feel there are various possible explanations for that--only one of them being cold reading.

See to me, while I keep my mind open to other possibilities cold-reading makes the most sense. It does not require me to posit the afterlife, telepathy/psi/esp, and it also works perfect for why these performances are poor, where other explanations like mediumship have to start invoking, "not enough time for a good reading", "bad communication with sitter via phone", "not a good format for what JE does". While several are possible, to me, only cold-reading is likely.

I know. But I think if mediumship is real, there's no reason why communication would be so straightforward and so easy all the time as you expect. It makes sense to me that "the process" would be difficult (if there is a process ).

So you agree that you've provided nothing that should convince me that mediumship communication should be difficult, yet you still accept it as part of the process. You just turned my question back on me stating that you don't see why it would be straightforward and easy. Why do you think this? What evidences have been provided to you that make you think it should be a difficult process of communication aside from the hearsay of mediums? Why do you accept that it would be difficult? I look at it logically and can't really find a good reason to think it should be so horrible vague and complex like mediums make it out to be. I can't say for sure one way or the other, but nothing has been provided to make me pitch my tent in the difficult communication process camp.

I do agree with you that his great special hits are relatively rare. But I think the hits that don't seem consistent with cold reading techniques are quite commonplace.

On this we clearly disagree. On several transcripts presented on here we've disagreed on just whether or not JE's more run of the mill hits are outside of the possibilities of cold-reading. I can't see how people think they don't fall within the realm of cold-reading. Its likely we'll never convince each other on these particular items as their subjective in a manner to each of our opinions.

No. I think they're both inconsistent.

Obviously, but is one largely more inconsistent than the other in your opinion?

Well, I would have said "cold reading" except that (1) there are many things in his readings that imo aren't explained as cold reading; (2) I find the hot reading theory weak; (3) mediumship remains a possible explanation for the "unexplained".

(1)I've yet to see a convincing list of these items, and am skeptical that they are indeed common enough to be termed "many".
(2)I've never subscribed a whole lot to the hot reading theory myself. Its cannot be ruled out obviously because of a lack of controls, but everything I've seen of JE has been close enough to cold-reading and just lucky guess' within cold-reading, that I haven't had to invoke the hot-reading rule.
(3)I agree its on the list, but its on the bottom of mine.

Seriously, I just don't know. You could say it's all cold reading, but to me, when I look at the details of many readings, the things that don't appear to be cold reading have to be explained some other way. I think mediumship remains a possibility and should be considered as such.

So you're completely divided on the issue? I would say that my position is clear on this, I'm of the opinion that mediumship hasn't been proven and that he's more than likely cold-reading, or using some other mundane technique, and I think this position is clear upon reading my posts. The fact that you've been on the other side of most of my arguements would be seen to me that while you perhaps have doubts, you either think mediumship is potentially more possible, or you want it to be more possible. This is of course my opinion, but from all my discussions with you, I don't see you as one completely split down the middle on whether he's cold-reading or doing mediumship, you've almost always argued from the mediumship angle. Just a personal observation.