Questions about Hyperinsulinemia/Diabetes

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Edited to add: The only new feature is the "Yep I was right" posts at each iteration .

Hans

But the references to those references are going to iterate now. Perhaps we can make our heads spin as fast as Kumar's.

 

[Mojo]

It looks fractal to me because I headbutted the screen. It hasn't helped.

But on the other hand, it can't have made it much worse.

 

[Perpetual Notion]

All I can say at this point is that Kumar's hypocrisy appears to be in full bloom. Here we have a perfect opportunity for Mr. Groovy Natural Path of Least Adversaries to cure himself with no medication whatsoever, and he won't do it. It requires him to put down the crisps and go for a walk. What could be more natural than that? I pointed this out to him but was told I was suggesting he do something unnatural and untested.

For some reason Kumar is lazy. How can that be? None of the warning signs were there. I'm shocked and disappointed.

 

[Kumar]

And as far as predispositions triggering conditions goes, as usual you have it backwards. The predisposition is a pre-existing condition, requiring other factors to lead to development of the condition.

Whether predispositions to diabetes will present any symptoms in any person before he get diabetes? Will a predisposed person to diabetes be different from other person who is not predisposed to it?

 

[Kumar]

I can't, off my head, think of something that interests me less.

Kumar, I asked you before: Do you still theorize that excess insulin causes diabetes?

Hans

What to Eat
Ayurveda recognizes six tastes – sweet, sour, salty, pungent, bitter and astringent and six main qualities (see below). All foods have one or more of these tastes and Ayurveda says that you should take foods including all six tastes at each main meal. If any taste is missed out it tends to cause a craving for it.
http://www.maharishi.co.uk/DietaryGuidelines.htm

Ayurveda is one of the oldest most reputed study. It does indicates dependence of craving is related to different type of foods. There are some sets of this dependence--mean one craving may encourage another craving. We should take interests in ancient studies & should translate those in modern language.

About insulin: Something is there which discouragess & causes unwillingness to cells to take glucose in it. It can be due to some change in internal environment of cells or due to their outer environment. It is also indicated in some links that glucose goes into cells but don't get metabolised there. This may discourage cells to take furthur glucose. Whether this is due to excess pushing of glucose into the cells by excess insulin resulting into discouragement/unwillingness to cells of not taking more glucose can still be thought as hyperinsulinemia effect.

I think this sequence goes alike it:-

Habit of taking unplanned & more food, more absorption of carbs, gulucotoxicity, excess insulin, cells taking more gulucose, more metabolism of sugar, discouragement of taking more glucose, IR condition. The responsibleprime cause can be "the habit of taking excess & unplanned foods". What make this habit in a person should be checked?

 

[MRC_Hans]

*snipØ
About insulin: Something *blabber* ulinemia effect.

I think this sequence goes alike it:-

Habit of taking unplanned & more food, *blabber*make this habit in a person should be checked? [/B]

In other words, you have not abandoned the idiotic idea that IR is caused by excess insulin, you are just veiling it in a lot of blabber for the moment.

Thanks, I just wanted to be sure.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Whether predispositions to diabetes will present any symptoms in any person before he get diabetes? Will a predisposed person to diabetes be different from other person who is not predisposed to it?

Having not yet mapped the genes responsible, we must currently say no. The only way to disclose diabetes predisposition is to look at diabetes incidence in the family.

No, they are not habitual overeaters, that is another cart you have put before a horse.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

Having not yet mapped the genes responsible, we must currently say no. The only way to disclose diabetes predisposition is to look at diabetes incidence in the family.

No, they are not habitual overeaters, that is another cart you have put before a horse.

Hans

Mr.Hans,

Don't make conclusions that I am not convinced even slightly about relationship between hyperinsulinemia & IR . Now, it looks that your tellings mostly convinced me. But still, I am bit unclear in view of IDDM type2/type1 patients who are deficient in insulin usually not get IR. WHY? If gulucotoxicity is the reason these should also get IR. Then?

In my surroundings, those who got IR/T2 were unplaned & excess eaters in their pre-diabetic stages. Diet & excecises is also a part of modern medication programe.

Anyway, there can be many different conditions in any disease so some systems classify people, diseases & healing agetnts according to different types--constitutions, miasms, vata,pitta, Kapha....so on?

Some diabetes may be insulin deficient type, insulin not working(may be not able to push glucose into the cells(receptors regulations) or glucose not metabolised completely into the cells), some think about insulin become inferere so not work, weight losing, stay constant, gain types, obesity, pH imbalances, eating/ absorption/sugar loss disorders...there can be many types which we can't conclude till we are absolutely/sufficiently clear.

So pls don't conclude any aspect till it is absolutely/sufficiently concluded/cleared otherwise it may cause hindrances in its progress. You may use 'in view of current understandings" in your tellings.

Is it not right that everything, what you people tell, is subject to & in view of current scientific understandings? Don't you want things should be absolutely/sufficiently clear & all should contribute to it as their prime duty esp. when they are advocater & related to modern systems?

Some other systems have studied & noted pre-stages of any predisposition. Just look at it for example,

In homeopathic medicine ailments such as food allergy, hypoglycemia, high blood pressure, asthma and digestive disorders are regarded as being manifestations of stress, so treatment is likely to be long-term and constitutional; http://www.holistic-online.com/stress/stress_homeopathy.htm

We can think here that stress taking habit can be a pre-symptom to some predispositions.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Mr.Hans,

Son't make conclusion that I am not convinced even slightly about relationship bryween hyperinsulinemia & IR . Now, it looks that your tellings mostly convinced me. But still I am bit unclear in view of IDDM type2/type1 patients who are deficient in insulin usually not get IR. WHY?

Type 2 patients do always have IR. That is the basic definition of type 2. After all these questions and replies you have STILL not grasped this simple basic distinction between type 1 and type 2?

If gulucotoxicity is the reason these should also get IR. Then?

It is not the reason. Clycotoxity is caused by IR (but it may worsen it). Another basic fact you have still not grasped.

In my surroundings, those who got IR/T2 were unplaned & excess eaters in their pre-diabetic stages.

Yes. Because type 2 is lifestyle related. But they also had a genetic presdiposition, otherwise their lifestyle would NOT have lead to diabetes. I'm sure you will find you also know some excess eaters that do not have diabetes. Why is it so difficult for you to understand this quite simple connection?

Diet & excecises is also a part of modern medication programe.

Yes, because as we have told you again and again, weight loss and exercise can lessen IR.

Anyway, there can be many different conditions in any disease so some systems classify people, diseases & healing agetnts according to different types--constitutions, miasms, vata,pitta, Kapha....so on?

There is no such things as miasms, vata and kapha. And it is spelled Pita, and Pita is generally not healthy for diabetics. Too much fat.

Some diabetes may be insulin deficient type, insulin not working

Diabetes IS either insulin dificiency (type 1) or insulin resistance (type 2). Plus, insulin deficiency may occur in progressed type 2, but that does not make it into type 1, as the basic pathology is still IR. Kumar TRY to get this. Keep rereading till you grasp it.

(may be not able to push glucose into the cells(receptors regulations)

Yes, that is the mechanism.

or glucose not metabolised completely into the cells)

No that is not the mechanism. Once clucose does get into the cells, it is metabolized OK.

, some think about insulin become inferere so not work, weight losing, stay constant, gain types, obesity, pH imbalances, eating/ absorption/sugar loss disorders...there can be many types which we can't conclude till we are absolutely/sufficiently clear.

"some think" means you think. And every time you think you are wrong.

So pls don't conclude any aspect till it is absolutely/sufficiently concluded/cleared otherwise it may cause hindrances in its progress. You may use 'in view of current understandings" in your tellings.

Kumar, we ARE researching this. Thousands of highly qualified specialists commanding billion dollar budgets are busy researching diabetes as we speak.

Is it not right that everything, what you people tell, is subject to & in view of current scientific understandings? Don't you want things should be absolutely/sufficiently clear & all should contribute to it as their prime duty esp. when they are advocater & related to modern systems?

Of course we do. But you do not contribute. Not at all.

Kumar, how do you imagine you can contribute anything at all to the progress of diabetes research when you are not even able to grasp the basics of the disease. When, even after having it explained to you repeatedly, you STILL don't understand the difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes?

You keep talking about things being "unclear" to you. I have news for you: EVERYTHING in this subject is unclear to you. You have not understood it at all.

Hans

 

[Mojo]

Whether predispositions to diabetes will present any symptoms in any person before he get diabetes

No. A predisposition to diabetes merely makes it more likely that a person will develop the condition, all other factors being equal.

Will a predisposed person to diabetes be different from other person who is not predisposed to it?

No. All the "predisposition" means is that a person with a predisposition to develop diabetes is more likely, under similar circumstances, to develop diabetes that someone without the predisposition. It does not cause the sort of dietary and exercise patterns which puts them at risk of developing the condition. That is down to the person themselves, and whether they are prepared to execise a little self-discipline.

 

[Kumar]

Type 2 patients do always have IR. That is the basic definition of type 2. After all these questions and replies you have STILL not grasped this simple basic distinction between type 1 and type 2?



Kumar, how do you imagine you can contribute anything at all to the progress of diabetes research when you are not even able to grasp the basics of the disease. When, even after having it explained to you repeatedly, you STILL don't understand the difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes?

You keep talking about things being "unclear" to you. I have news for you: EVERYTHING in this subject is unclear to you. You have not understood it at all.

Hans

It may be a news ro you.

Type 1 diabetes mellitus
Type 1 diabetes is most commonly diagnosed in children and adolescents, but can occur in adults as well. It is an autoimmune disorder, in which the body's own immune system attacks the beta cells in the Islets of Langerhans of the pancreas, destroying them or damaging them sufficiently to reduce insulin production. The autoimmune attack may be triggered by reaction to an infection, for example by one of the viruses of the Coxsackie virus family. A subtype of type 1 (identifiable by the presence of antibodies against beta cells) develops slowly and so is often confused with Type 2. In addition, a small proportion of type 1 cases has the hereditary condition maturity onset diabetes of the young (MODY).

Some poisons (e.g. certain rat poisons) work by selectively destroying certain types of cells, including pancreatic beta cells, thus producing "artificial" type 1 diabetes. Other pancreatic problems including trauma, pancreatitis or tumors (either malignant or benign) can also lead to loss of insulin production.

Currently, type 1 is treated with insulin injections, lifestyle adjustments, and careful monitoring of blood glucose levels using blood test kits. Insulin delivery is also available by an insulin pump, which allows the infusion of insulin 24 hours a day at preset levels, and the ability to program push doses (bolus) of insulin as needed at meal times. The treatment must be continued indefinitely. Experimental replacement of beta cells (by transplant) is being investigated in several research programs and may become clinically available in the future.

About 5-10% of all North American cases of diabetes are Type 1 diabetics. The fraction of type 1 diabetics in other parts of the world differs; this is likely due to both differences in the rate of type 1 and differences in the rate of other types, most prominently type 2. Most of this difference is not currently understood.

Formerly, type 1 diabetes was called "childhood" or "juvenile" diabetes or "insulin dependent" diabetes. Each term is a misnomer, especially since the obesity epidemic in recent years has led to increased incidence of type 2 diabetes in children and adolescents in the USA, and insulin is used in some type 2 cases.

Type 2 diabetes mellitus


Type 2 diabetes is characterized by "insulin resistance" as body cells do not respond appropriately when insulin is present. This is a more complex problem than type 1, but is sometimes easier to treat, since insulin is still produced, especially in the initial years. Type 2 may go unnoticed for years in a patient before diagnosis, since the symptoms are typically milder (no ketoacidosis) and can be sporadic. However, severe complications can result from unnoticed type 2 diabetes, including renal failure, and coronary artery disease.

Type 2 is initially treated by changes in diet and through weight loss. This can restore insulin sensitivity, even when the weight lost is modest e.g. around 5 kg (10 to 15 lb). The next step, if necessary, is treatment with oral antidiabetic drugs: the sulphonylureas, metformin, or (if these are insufficient) thiazolidinediones. When these have failed, insulin therapy may be necessary to maintain normal glucose levels.

Type 3 diabetes mellitus
All other specific forms of diabetes, accounting for up to 5% of all diagnosed cases of diabetes, are termed Type 3:

Type 3A: genetic defect in beta cells.
Type 3B: genetically related insulin resistance.
Type 3C: diseases of the pancreas.
Type 3D: caused by hormonal defects.
Type 3E: caused by chemicals or drugs.
[edit]
Gestational diabetes mellitushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetes#Type_2_diabetes_mellitus

Are you cinsidering type 3.......?

 

[MRC_Hans]

It may be a news ro you.

Afraid not. I have been aware of it for some time. And cutting and pasting a long explanation is not the same as understanding. Your posts clearly show that even though you are able to find and quote the proper texts, you fail to understand it. If you understood it, you would not need to ask most of the questions you are asking.

Are you cinsidering type 3.......?

Considerering explaining it to you? Not as long as you haven't grasped type 1 and type 2 .

But I have stopped considering explaining anything to you. I might answer direct questions if they are written in intelligible English, and make general sense. Otherwise, consider yourself noise.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

No. A predisposition to diabetes merely makes it more likely that a person will develop the condition, all other factors being equal. No. All the "predisposition" means is that a person with a predisposition to develop diabetes is more likely, under similar circumstances, to develop diabetes that someone without the predisposition. It does not cause the sort of dietary and exercise patterns which puts them at risk of developing the condition. That is down to the person themselves, and whether they are prepared to execise a little self-discipline.

I think we now study or can study "gross" form or "after getting" of any aspect instead of studying it at 'basic/root level alike "police comes after crime already happened" . We may be studying whole tree above the ground but not the roots--because we may like to accept only that which we can see grossly from our naked eyes.

Anyway, It is difficult for me to ingest that nothing odd happens & visible in early stages in any person on any genetic change. Something different should happen, but depending upon environmental factors some may progress to the disease stage others may not. What can be those pre-stage symptoms can be an important research to do to understand anything at base/root level? Just look at these snips:-

In type 2 diabetes, the body cannot produce enough insulin or the insulin secreted in unable to do its job properly. Either way, this causes a rise in blood sugar.The majority of diabetics, about 90%, suffer from this type of diabetes.

A genetic predisposition, being overweight and a sedentary lifestyle contribute to the onset of type 2 diabetes. As well, some studies point to a high-fat diet as a possible risk factor.

In many cases, the symptoms are so mild that they are overlooked for many years. It takes an estimated seven (7) years on average before a doctor finally makes a diagnosis of diabetes.

What makes a person to follow those preactices which makes him overweight and follow a sedentary lifestyle which can result into diabetes? With similar availability, why some people eat more & opt for sedentary lifestyle & become diabetics whereas other don't? Do we understand inborn/inherited habits & their effects/results?

 

[Mojo]

I think we now study or can study "gross" form or "after getting" of any aspect instead of studying it at 'basic/root level alike "police comes after crime already happened" . We may be studying whole tree above the ground but not the roots--because we may like to accept only that which we can see grossly from our naked eyes.

It is difficult to study the very early stages of a condition because they tend to take place before the condition has been diagnosed.

Anyway, It is difficult for me to ingest that nothing odd happens & visible in early stages in any person on any genetic change.

As I have already told you at least twice, a person's genetic makeup does not change. Please try to grasp this concept.

Something different should happen, but depending upon environmental factors some may progress to the disease stage others may not. What can be those pre-stage symptoms can be an important research to do to understand anything at base/root level?

A predisposition is not the same thing as the early stage symptoms. The symptoms develop as a result of a combination of the existence of the predisposition and the presence of other factors. The predisposition itself does not have symptoms.

A genetic predisposition, being overweight and a sedentary lifestyle contribute to the onset of type 2 diabetes. As well, some studies point to a high-fat diet as a possible risk factor.

See? that's what we've been telling you.

What makes a person to follow those preactices which makes him overweight and follow a sedentary lifestyle which can result into diabetes?

Lazyness and greed.

With similar availability, why some people eat more & opt for sedentary lifestyle & become diabetics whereas other don't?

Lazyness and greed.

Do we understand inborn/inherited habits & their effects/results?

Habits are not inherited, they are learned.

 

[MRC_Hans]

*snip*

Anyway, It is difficult for me to ingest that nothing odd happens & visible in early stages in any person on any genetic change.

"Ingest" is not the proper word. Use "understand" or perhaps "swallow". Kumar, it is difficult for you to understand. We noticed, but so what?

"Early stages of any genetic change". ANOTHER thing you don't get, in spite of having been told many times: NO genetic change happens in the person.

Something different should happen, but depending upon environmental factors some may progress to the disease stage others may not.

No, not depending on environmental factors. Depending on genetic disposition.

What can be those pre-stage symptoms can be an important research to do to understand anything at base/root level? Just look at these snips:-

There are no pre-stage symptoms.

What makes a person to follow those preactices which makes him overweight and follow a sedentary lifestyle which can result into diabetes?

Various things. Character, family tradition, lack of education, stupidity, perhaps some other genetic predisposition. None of it relevant to diabetes.


With similar availability, why some people eat more & opt for sedentary lifestyle & become diabetics whereas other don't? Do we understand inborn/inherited habits & their effects/results?

I have to wonder if you are trolling or you are really this dense.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

Mr Hans,

Ok, just look at it:-

How do you know you have pre-diabetes?

Unfortunately you cannot know from symptoms because at this stage there are no symptoms or warning signs. But you can work out your own risk of pre-diabetes by answering some simple questions such, are you overweight or obese, over 55, have a family history of diabetes or lead a sedentary, physically inactive lifestyle?
LINK.

It tells, no symptoms are there in early stages. Let us classify conditions/risk factors related to it:-

1. Family history/genetic predispositions.

2. Age above 55

3. Over-weight or Obesity

4. Sedentary, physically inactive lifestyle?

Now I am doubting that some symptoms related predispositions(1) can be related to getting Over-weight or Obesity & Sedentary, physically inactive lifestyle (3&4 above) & a predisposed person, if exposed & get oppornuties to become obese & adopt Sedentary, physically inactive lifestyle--he will be so enforced to adopt/opt for these by the predispositions whereas a not predisposed person will not? So whatever habits which a predisposed person can adopt/opt which can make him to be obese & sed.lifestyle, can be thought to be related to T2/IR, if not common to other conditions.

Btw, Whether Obesity+Sed.Lifestyle AND Obesity+Active lifestyle can two basic considerations to diabetes & hypertention respectively?

 

[Kumar]

While genetic and biological predispositions are important to explore, for each individual there may be a wide variety of reasons for developing an Eating Disorder.

A great deal of research in recent years has indicated that there may be genetic factors that contribute to the onset of an Eating Disorder. This is not to say that emotional, behavioral and environmental reasons do not play significant roles, but that for some, there may be a genetic predisposition to the development of Anorexia, Bulimia or Compulsive Overeating.

One study by doctors at the Maudsley Hospital in London suggested that people with Anorexia were twice as likely to have variations in the gene for serotonin receptors, part of which helps to determine appetite. Because of an overproduction of serotonin, it is possible that those with Anorexia are in a continual state of feeling acute stress -- as in the fight or flight response -- creating an overwhelming and constant sense of anxiety. (Genetic clues to eating disorders; BBC News)

http://www.something-fishy.org/isf/genetics.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/259226.stm

Mr. Hans,

I previously discussed a lot at sciforum about genetics, genotype & phenotype, heriditary etc. But we use genetic changes as a common mentioning for all there even may not be abs. technical.

 

[Mojo]

Now I am doubting that some symptoms related predispositions(1) can be related to getting Over-weight or Obesity & Sedentary, physically inactive lifestyle (3&4 above) & a predisposed person, if exposed & get oppornuties to become obese & adopt Sedentary, physically inactive lifestyle--he will be so enforced to adopt/opt for these by the predispositions whereas a not predisposed person will not?

No, Kumar, the predisposition does not lead to the adoption of a sedentary lifestyle, it does not lead to obesity. It just makes it more likely that a person with this sort of lifestyle will develop diabetes.

How many times do you need to be told this?

 

[Mojo]

While genetic and biological predispositions are important to explore, for each individual there may be a wide variety of reasons for developing an Eating Disorder.

A great deal of research in recent years has indicated that there may be genetic factors that contribute to the onset of an Eating Disorder. This is not to say that emotional, behavioral and environmental reasons do not play significant roles, but that for some, there may be a genetic predisposition to the development of Anorexia, Bulimia or Compulsive Overeating.

One study by doctors at the Maudsley Hospital in London suggested that people with Anorexia were twice as likely to have variations in the gene for serotonin receptors, part of which helps to determine appetite. Because of an overproduction of serotonin, it is possible that those with Anorexia are in a continual state of feeling acute stress -- as in the fight or flight response -- creating an overwhelming and constant sense of anxiety.

I previously discussed a lot at sciforum about genetics, genotype & phenotype, heriditary etc. But we use genetic changes as a common mentioning for all there even may not be abs. technical.

What you have posted here has nothing to do with predisposition to diabetes. Eating disorders are a different type of condition. These are types of compulsive disorder, not just a question of a little overeating leading to being overweight.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Mr Hans,

Ok, just look at it:-


*snip*

Yes, you are quoting excellent explanations. The data is all there. Why do you keep asking when you have already found the answers. READ the texts and understand them. And if you can't understand them, I don't expect anybody can help you.

I previously discussed a lot at sciforum about genetics, genotype & phenotype, heriditary etc. But we use genetic changes as a common mentioning for all there even may not be abs. technical.

Genetic change is something you are born with, period. It does not happen during your lifetime (genetic engineering might one day change that, but that's another matter). You can't define your own vocabulary. If you don't mean genetic change, don't use the term.

Hans