Split Thread Pronouns and expectations

[acbytesla]

Maybe so, in a roundabout way., as so many people live comparatively. They measure their own happiness and prosperity, the validity of their istitutions and even of themselves, against that of others. Looking outward is easier than looking inward. The value of a club is its exclusivity, of a doctrine its narrowness,

Yes! And what a mistake.

I always loved the quote, "I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member."

 

[acbytesla]

Yes, it is.


An appeal to analogy? Sure, why not?


The analogy is holding up so far.


Only when they demand that I pretend to share their delusion, for their own comfort.

The analogy is still holding.


Of course not. That would be insane.

The analogy is still holding.


Not as long as they don't demand that I pretend to share their delusion, for their own comfort.

The analogy is still holding.


Because some people are polite to me, and others insist on being jerks.

The analogy is still holding.

Congratulations! You made an appeal to analogy that was properly analogous. It still didn't work, though - it ended up supporting my position anyway.


The debate about preferred pronouns would be very different, if it were actually about people with DSDs trying to reconcile their genotype with their sex as perceived by others. But it's not. That's not the problem you're trying to solve, and you know this. It's not even really a problem that needs solving in this way, and you know this too.

I noticed you didn't answer my question. How are you so sure you perceived their sex correctly? Do you feel everyone up?

 

[jimbob]

This thread is about the calling someone by their preferred pronouns. It is not about wherever transwomen are women, for which there is an already-active thread

Please try to stick to the topic and remember rules 0 and 12

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jimbob

 

[Aridas]

How is 261,547 people in the US with the name of Jesus not thousands?

Not quite what I said. Rather, hundreds of thousands would be more accurate than thousands. That's a couple orders of magnitude difference, at last check.

 

[theprestige]

I noticed you didn't answer my question. How are you so sure you perceived their sex correctly? Do you feel everyone up?

I can't remember the last time I got someone's sex wrong, even for a moment. It's just not a problem for people. Never has been. Never will be. That's how I'm so sure. And you're so sure, too. You're not confused about Eddie Izzard's sex, even when he's in drag. You're not confused about Elliot Page's sex. Nor Caitlin Jenner's, no matter what names they give themselves. You know Tilda Swinton is a woman. You know RuPaul is a man. These are not things people actually get confused about, in practice.

The debate about preferred pronouns would be very different, if it were actually about androgynes trying to fit into a binary-sexed population.

If you were right, that biological sex is largely ambiguous and inscrutable, then it would be reflected in our literature. Shakespeare's characters would inquire about a stranger's mode of address, on first meeting them. Hrothgar's lookout would have inquired of Beowulf which of his companions identified as men, and which as women, as a matter of diplomatic courtesy.

Scott and Wodehouse and Hemingway would have reflected this social reality in their works. As would have Wolfe, Plath, and Atwood. But they didn't. Because sex isn't remotely as confusing or ambiguous as you need it to be, to support your argument for preferred pronouns.

 

[acbytesla]

Not quite what I said. Rather, hundreds of thousands would be more accurate than thousands. That's a couple orders of magnitude difference, at last check.

Very true. But I never said how many thousands.

 

[acbytesla]

I can't remember the last time I got someone's sex wrong, even for a moment. It's just not a problem for people. Never has been. Never will be. That's how I'm so sure. And you're so sure, too. You're not confused about Eddie Izzard's sex, even when he's in drag. You're not confused about Elliot Page's sex. Nor Caitlin Jenner's, no matter what names they give themselves. You know Tilda Swinton is a woman. You know RuPaul is a man. These are not things people actually get confused about, in practice.

The debate about preferred pronouns would be very different, if it were actually about androgynes trying to fit into a binary-sexed population.

If you were right, that biological sex is largely ambiguous and inscrutable, then it would be reflected in our literature. Shakespeare's characters would inquire about a stranger's mode of address, on first meeting them. Hrothgar's lookout would have inquired of Beowulf which of his companions identified as men, and which as women, as a matter of diplomatic courtesy.

Scott and Wodehouse and Hemingway would have reflected this social reality in their works. As would have Wolfe, Plath, and Atwood. But they didn't. Because sex isn't remotely as confusing or ambiguous as you need it to be, to support your argument for preferred pronouns.

My guess the only reason you think you didn't get someone's sex wrong is your ignorance. I know lots of individuals you wouldn't know unless they told you. I tended bar for years in a popular club where homosexuals and trans people frequented. If I couldn't tell, I'm pretty sure those without the experience I have had couldn't either. Some you absolutely could. But a lot of others, not a chance.

 

[Steve]

My guess the only reason you think you didn't get someone's sex wrong is your ignorance. I know lots of individuals you wouldn't know unless they told you. I tended bar for years in a popular club where homosexuals and trans people frequented. If I couldn't tell, I'm pretty sure those without the experience I have had couldn't either. Some you absolutely could. But a lot of others, not a chance.

Seems to me that if persons want strangers to know their sex/gender identity there is some onus on those persons to make that identity visible. Humans are, after all primarily reliant on vision for first impressions. If those persons don't care if strangers know then no problem. Did those people for whom you tended bar and couldn't tell actually care if total strangers couldn't tell? If any did care did they go out of their way to chastise strangers for not asking?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Seems to me that if persons want strangers to know their sex/gender identity there is some onus on those persons to make that identity visible.

Yeah, they could go ahead and tell you. But apparently that's wrong to do? You have to guess, and they have to give clues, but they can't come right out and tell you their pronouns. It's some kind of etiquette? Or a parlor game?

 

[acbytesla]

Seems to me that if persons want strangers to know their sex/gender identity there is some onus on those persons to make that identity visible. Humans are, after all primarily reliant on vision for first impressions. If those persons don't care if strangers know then no problem. Did those people for whom you tended bar and couldn't tell actually care if total strangers couldn't tell? If any did care did they go out of their way to chastise strangers for not asking?

There's a lot going on there. One, I got to know personally many of the patrons. I made a lot of friends. And neither the gays or the trans people were shy in that environment. People talk. Yearly they held a beauty contest where biological men dressed as women. Some were drag and some were trans.

As a straight man I was definitely surprised with what I saw. Also, my experience isn't that they would chastize you. They would correct you. If you deliberately continued to misgender them they would ignore you.

 

[acbytesla]

Yeah, they could go ahead and tell you. But apparently that's wrong to do? You have to guess, and they have to give clues, but they can't come right out and tell you their pronouns. It's some kind of etiquette? Or a parlor game?

It's not a parlor game. They want to be seen as the gender they ID as. They don't want to have to tell you. But they often will. This really isn't the big deal people are making it out to be. They tell you their name is Bill they identify as male. If they introduce themselves as Jill, they identify as female. If they pick an androgynous name and dress androgynously, that's on them.

 

[Steve]

It's not a parlor game. They want to be seen as the gender they ID as. They don't want to have to tell you. But they often will. This really isn't the big deal people are making it out to be. They tell you their name is Bill they identify as male. If they introduce themselves as Jill, they identify as female. If they pick an androgynous name and dress androgynously, that's on them.

Makes perfect sense. Eliminates most of the "you should ask" difficulty. Because in my world you can be whatever you want and it really doesn't matter to me what you are.

 

[acbytesla]

Makes perfect sense. Eliminates most of the "you should ask" difficulty. Because in my world you can be whatever you want and it really doesn't matter to me what you are.

The issue really isn't honest mistakes. It's the toxic male who knows what they want, but refuses to acknowledge it. You're not a female so I'll be damned if I will refer to you as one. No skin off their nose. But they think they are justified to treat you as a weirdo. This is what we get in the Trump MAGA world. He gave so many people permission to be jerks and they are embracing it.

 

[8enotto]

Wouldn't trans oriented folks try to avoid hostile situations where rabid maggats hang out and gravitate to more friendly situations?
It's what happens in Mexico. They practically own the theater district there.

You know, much like everyone else in society?

 

[acbytesla]

Wouldn't trans oriented folks try to avoid hostile situations where rabid maggats hang out and gravitate to more friendly situations?
It's what happens in Mexico. They practically own the theater district there.

You know, much like everyone else in society?

Usually yes. Seattle is about as liberal, progressive and tolerant a city as you're going to find in the US. But still, it has its share of troglydites.

 

[Steve]

The issue really isn't honest mistakes. It's the toxic male who knows what they want, but refuses to acknowledge it. You're not a female so I'll be damned if I will refer to you as one. No skin off their nose. But they think they are justified to treat you as a weirdo. This is what we get in the Trump MAGA world. He gave so many people permission to be jerks and they are embracing it.

Understood. I don't take responsibility for the actions of bigots. All I can do is attempt to treat others fairly myself. Any help those others provide to smooth things along is appreciated.

 

[John Freestone]

Not compared to the stupid and delusional Jesus claim. I don't go into a church and tell them they are all nuts either. And i bet you don't either.

Why do insist on being rude to others? Seriously, why? You're life only has value if you make someone else miserable?

You apparently didn't read, or you entirely disbelieve, what I've already written. While you're advocating politeness and respecting what people tell you about themselves. If I said I was trans, you'd agree (while privately knowing that it's "stupid and deluded"), but the things I do tell you, you ignore.

Also, my experience isn't that they would chastize you. They would correct you. If you deliberately continued to misgender them they would ignore you.

That's useful to be reminded of. They just don't include you in their friend group if you don't play along. No harm done. Did all your trans friends know you thought they were "stupid and deluded", by the way?

And of course the claim your gender is the opposite of your sex isn't as silly as my claim that I'm "Jesus Christ", but that was the point. A humorous, exaggerated example of delusion you might encounter, a thought experiment, to see if there are examples where you would challenge someone. It wasn't a good choice. Clearly I'd be so bonkers there'd be little reason to challenge me unless you saw me dragging a large cross up a hill. Would you then? Probably not. No skin off your nose if I think I'm Jesus and get a few mates to nail me to a cross, eh?

Say a friend claimed they were a feral dog, and started sleeping out on the streets. Would you just accept that, pat them, feed them treats, teach them tricks, and walk them on a leash? (Exaggerated, unlikely example, remember - this is a thought experiment only.) Can you comprehend the principle of EVER challenging someone being "stupid and deluded"? That's the point.

The point of it is to see if you're able to think. The point is to see if you can begin to understand those people who are concerned about just playing along with delusions (some, like me, so concerned that we've decided not to if we can). You would then, of course, have to begin to consider whether their concerns had any merit as well to begin to see me as anything but someone who likes to be rude to people to big myself up. But no, all you'll do is ignore (or twist) everything to look like you're right, whatever it takes, and the other is wrong. This is intellectual cowardice.

You're so determined not to think, you pretend you don't understand the meaning of "Jesus Christ" when put to you, instead pretending you accept that I am called Jesus, which is a common name. Problem solved. Nothing to see here.

 

[bruto]

I admit I'm a bit distant from the fray here, living the good life out in the country and all, but the arguments I hear from some on this issue seem an echo of those we Vermonters heard 25 years ago on civil unions. A variant position on sexual orientation is not the same as wanting to ◊◊◊◊ your cat or to marry your teapot. But here we go again, with that slippery slope where disputong your gender is tantamount to identifying as a feral dog or Jesus Christ.

Of course if you are convinced it's just a delusion indistinguishable from other delusions I suppose it makes sense to imagine those excesses although one might suggest that even then there are legal boundaries that sometimes apply to control the extent of delusion, which might be why some of us are not agitating for the suppression of mystical religions despite our atheism.

But if you are not convinced that gender dysphoria is a delusion similar to identifying as a dog or a fire engine, the argument seems just intemperate.

E.t.a. please excuse random typing errors, especially those where a space should be. Crappy tablet.

 

[acbytesla]

You apparently didn't read, or you entirely disbelieve, what I've already written. While you're advocating politeness and respecting what people tell you about themselves. If I said I was trans, you'd agree (while privately knowing that it's "stupid and deluded"), but the things I do tell you, you ignore.

I don't think it's stupid or deluded. I think it's their life.

That's useful to be reminded of. They just don't include you in their friend group if you don't play along. No harm done. Did all your trans friends know you thought they were "stupid and deluded", by the way?

Again, I don't think they're stupid or deluded. But out of curiosity. What did you think they would and should do?

And of course the claim your gender is the opposite of your sex isn't as silly as my claim that I'm "Jesus Christ", but that was the point. A humorous, exaggerated example of delusion you might encounter, a thought experiment, to see if there are examples where you would challenge someone. It wasn't a good choice. Clearly I'd be so bonkers there'd be little reason to challenge me unless you saw me dragging a large cross up a hill. Would you then? Probably not. No skin off your nose if I think I'm Jesus and get a few mates to nail me to a cross, eh?

What do you think I should do if I see you carrying a cross?

Say a friend claimed they were a feral dog, and started sleeping out on the streets. Would you just accept that, pat them, feed them treats, teach them tricks, and walk them on a leash? (Exaggerated, unlikely example, remember - this is a thought experiment only.) Can you comprehend the principle of EVER challenging someone being "stupid and deluded"? That's the point.

False equivalency. I don't think Trans people are delusional or have a mental disorder.

The point of it is to see if you're able to think. The point is to see if you can begin to understand those people who are concerned about just playing along with delusions (some, like me, so concerned that we've decided not to if we can). You would then, of course, have to begin to consider whether their concerns had any merit as well to begin to see me as anything but someone who likes to be rude to people to big myself up. But no, all you'll do is ignore (or twist) everything to look like you're right, whatever it takes, and the other is wrong. This is intellectual cowardice.

You're so determined not to think, you pretend you don't understand the meaning of "Jesus Christ" when put to you, instead pretending you accept that I am called Jesus, which is a common name. Problem solved. Nothing to see here.

Let me tell you what I think. Trans people are not feral dogs. They're not some guy who thinks he is some mythological figure from the past.
I think Trans people are human beings with feelings. I don't know how to change them from being trans or identifying their gender differently. I'm not a mental health professional. And I bet money you aren't either. What I do know is that health professionals do not think being trans is a mental health problem. You can't pray the gay away either.

 

[Aridas]

What do you think I should do if I see you carrying a cross?

As a small side note, I'd like to add a question about their local laws regarding self harm, given the rest of that.

As another side note, I've seen Christians (and paid actors) acting out Jesus carrying a cross plenty of times and there's nothing about the act itself that would normally ring any alarm bells on its own because of that. It's unusual, but not a sign of something actually being wrong in and of itself, even if one also called themself Jesus. Rather, that just makes it seem more like LARPing or rehearsing the role for later. As for the friends agreeing to nail them? That's pretty explicitly against the law pretty much everywhere.