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Split Thread Pronouns and expectations

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Males invading female intimate spaces when those women are in vulnerable states also creates an awful environment.

acbytesla doesn't really care about that, though. Because it was never actually about "awful environments".
I don't. And I'm not so sure what is exactly intimate about those spaces. Bathroom stalls in Women's bathrooms are almost always private.

But we're not talking about bathrooms. This is about being polite to one another. Not that a MAGAT would understand politeness and friendly decorum.
 
Oh, so you think it is acceptable to call someone George who says his name is John? It's not exactly difficult to be nice and refer to someone as they would like. I mean what difference does it make to you to be polite and respectful?

Bad analogy is a bad analogy. There's nothing about any man that would allow anyone to intuit that his name was George, even though he introduced himself as John. Conversely, it's literally childishly simple to see what sex anyone is >99% of the time, and that remaning fraction consists of people who have gone to inordinate lengths to deceive. It's not polite or respectful for anyone to insist that complete strangers adopt their counter-intuitive demands for special speech forms.

And the difference it makes to me is that "she/her" will use that concession to walk into women's single-sex spaces, and robs from us the language we need to prevent that.

No, I am not going to turn my brain into a pretzel to humour any narcissistic self-absorbed exhibitionist who demands that everyone around him (or her) deny observable reality.
 
I don't. And I'm not so sure what is exactly intimate about those spaces. Bathroom stalls in Women's bathrooms are almost always private.

But we're not talking about bathrooms. This is about being polite to one another. Not that a MAGAT would understand politeness and friendly decorum.
It's funny that you never even thought to consider changing rooms. You are correct, though, you don't care. You don't care about women who are made to feel unsafe. Apparently, there's nothing impolite about deliberately making women feel unsafe.

Friendly decorum my ass.
 
I said sexuality, not sex. These things are not synonymous. You might use he/she pronouns to refer to gender and not sex, but I don't. I use he/she pronouns to refer to sex. Not gender, and not sexuality.

And you didn't answer my question:
how does my use of pronouns interfere with their life?
No doubt if you see yourself as alone in the world and not a part of a larger society and its behavior, and your language as not representing anything about how you otherwise relate to the person, you're right. It doesn't have much effect. If it indicates, as it so often does, a bias that reflects how you interact with others, especially in a way that is transparently confrontational, it might, while not technically injurious, indicate further intent. After all, those in this thread who have objected to the use of preferred pronouns have been pretty explicit in their belief that transsexuals are delusional and mentally ill. So, yes, of course, in the world of the context-free solipsist, if you simply call a person insane, without any further action, it's just nasty. No sticks and stones.

But from the point of view of the person receiving pronouns purposely contrary to their stated preference, you might, despite any disavowal of statistics and protestations of separation from others who do the very same thing, be seen as a member of a group for whom the speech is only one symptom of a variety of attitudes toward their place in society and their ability to lead the lives they seek.

Your question is like asking what harm there is in flying a Confederate flag. You might be able to say it does nothing, but you'd be a tone-deaf fool to say it says nothing. And that, of course, is true even if you contend that what you're saying is right, and it's true even if you are right in saying so. If you try too diligently to contend that your speech is inconsequential, you might end up robbing yourself of an argument for doing it.
 
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Oh, so you think it is acceptable to call someone George who says his name is John?
Well, that kinda depends. Is his name actually George or is it actually John? This seems to be rather relevant to the question, and the omission of this details is... odd.
 
No doubt if you see yourself as alone in the world and not a part of a larger society and its behavior, and your language as not representing anything about how you otherwise relate to the person, you're right. It doesn't have much effect. If it indicates, as it so often does, a bias that reflects how you interact with others, especially in a way that is transparently confrontational, it might, while not technically injurious, indicate further intent.
There sure are a lot of unsupported "ifs" in your response.

What if all it indicates is my observation of the person's biological sex?
But from the point of view of the person receiving pronouns purposely contrary to their stated preference,
When I use "he" or "she", I don't use it to address the person I'm referring to, so I don't know how you think they are "receiving pronouns".
Your question is like asking what harm there is in flying a Confederate flag.
No, it really isn't. Which is why people don't object to any and all uses of "he" and "she" pronouns. In fact, they frequently insist upon these pronouns. So unlike the Confederate flag, the pronouns themselves are obviously not the problem.
If you try too diligently to contend that your speech is inconsequential, you might end up robbing yourself of an argument for doing it.
Oh, I didn't say it was inconsequential. I asked how it interfered with their lives. And you haven't actually presented an answer.
 
Bad analogy is a bad analogy. There's nothing about any man that would allow anyone to intuit that his name was George, even though he introduced himself as John. Conversely, it's literally childishly simple to see what sex anyone is >99% of the time, and that remaning fraction consists of people who have gone to inordinate lengths to deceive. It's not polite or respectful for anyone to insist that complete strangers adopt their counter-intuitive demands for special speech forms.

And the difference it makes to me is that "she/her" will use that concession to walk into women's single-sex spaces, and robs from us the language we need to prevent that.

No, I am not going to turn my brain into a pretzel to humour any narcissistic self-absorbed exhibitionist who demands that everyone around him (or her) deny observable reality.
What difference does it make? I was brought up to treat others as I would like to be treated if I was them. You know, Golden Rule.
 
What difference does it make? I was brought up to treat others as I would like to be treated if I was them. You know, Golden Rule.

Well, since I don't care a button what pronouns people use to refer to me in the third person, we're all good.

I note that you ignored the consequences outlined. The sentence "she should not be in the women's changing room" conveys very different information from "he should not be in the women's changing room."
 
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A typical MAGAT answer. Congrats. You're not a disappointment.
Your post was just "Sure they are." Were you actually hoping for a longer response? Do you actually think your post deserved a longer response?

I assure you, it did not.
 
I just happened upon this, from Joanne Rowling, pointing out that compelled speech has been a key tactic of the trans lobby from the beginning.
"Time and again, I've seen and heard well-educated people who consider themselves critical thinkers and bold truth-tellers squirm when put on the spot. 'Well, yes, maybe there's something in what you're saying, but it's hateful/provocative/rude not to use the approved language/pretend people can literally change sex/keep drawing attention to medical malpractice or opportunistic sexual predators. Why can't you be nice? Why won't you pretend?"

We are seeing exactly this tactic being employed in this thread.
 
Another very pertinent observation.


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"Be kind", or I'll call you all the horrible names I can think of, and insist that you are not fit to be part of society. Your comfort, your safety, your opinions are worth nothing. Only the people attacking your rights matter, and you must kowtow to them because I say so.
 
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I've yet to be convinced it really is kind to indulge someone's belief that reality has been changed by the thoughts in their head by using preferred pronouns. In my experience, reality will eventually turn round and bite such people in the arse. Because, as Richard Feynman once pointed out in very different circumstances, you can fool yourself and others as much as you like, but nature cannot be fooled.

I read an article a while back (in the Guardian, I think) in which trans folk in a place where they have essentially got everything activists are demanding were interviewed, to see how it was working out for them. It was heartbreaking. In the following paragraph I am going to use pronouns based on biological sex, because otherwise it would make no sense whatsoever.

There was one trans identifying male in particular who my heart really went out to, who worked at a museum. He had done absolutely everything he could to pass as a woman, and now had to face the fact that it wasn't enough. The adults he showed around were very polite and treated him respectfully, used the correct pronouns etc, but he could tell they all knew perfectly well he was actually a man. But what he absolutely dreaded was school visits. No, not because the children were cruel and mocking. Because they were innocent and honest. "Why are you trying to look like a woman, mister?". After reading that article, stats I saw later showing that the suicide rate amongst trans folk have yet to decrease at all did not come as a surprise.

All the attempts to compel speech, all the threats and accusations of hatred, all the forced abolition of the female only intimate spaces that many women (especially those who have been victims of male sexual predators) genuinely need to feel sufficiently safe to venture into many public places, without a shred of evidence that any of it is actually going to help trans folk in the long term, or any consideration of whether there might be better ways to help them which don't require negatively impacting women. The whole thing is an absolute ◊◊◊◊ show.
 
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