Progressive Radio Rants -- Minimum Wage

[WildCat]

I believe we should ensure all people can have a home, healthcare and food on the table. But if I argued for this, you'd say that buying a mansion and providing chefs for all people would be a bad thing.

No, it would be a great thing! Unfortunately, it's beyond the power of government to do that by raising minimum wage. Assuming everyone keeps their jobs, all the gains will be eaten up through inflation.

 

[Ziggurat]

I believe we should ensure all people can have a home, healthcare and food on the table. But if I argued for this, you'd say that buying a mansion and providing chefs for all people would be a bad thing.

It would be great to buy everyone a mansion and hire everyone a chef. It would also be great to give them a hovercar while we're at it.

But we can't. It's not possible. And what IS possible (subsidizing the poor to help provide some minimum standard of living) can be done better through other means than minimum wage.

 

[bikerdruid]

It would be great to buy everyone a mansion and hire everyone a chef. It would also be great to give them a hovercar while we're at it.

there is the problem with capitalists.
greed.
ken talks about a home, food and transportation.
you equate that to a mansion, a hired chef and a hovercar.

most people in the world are concerned with basics, while capitalists are only happy with luxury and opulence.
there is moe than enough wealth in the world to supply everyone with the basics, if it were not for the greed of the rich.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Yea, and I didn't even mention transportation. I'm amazed that the point went right over their heads, Biker.

 

[Neally]

there is the problem with capitalists.
greed.
ken talks about a home, food and transportation.
you equate that to a mansion, a hired chef and a hovercar.

most people in the world are concerned with basics, while capitalists are only happy with luxury and opulence.
there is moe than enough wealth in the world to supply everyone with the basics, if it were not for the greed of the rich.

There is the problem with communists/socialists irrational hatred and envy of the rich. Irrational to the point that you even refuse to acknowledge that Ziggurat said helping the poor is possible, but that minimum wage was a poor way to do it. Not surprising that the point went right over the heads of the wealth haters.

 

[The_Animus]

What about the 16 year old looking for spending money? What about the retired person just looking for some extra cash?

The former is supported by their parents, the latter by SS, maybe a pension or retirement savings. Neither is looking for a job to "make a living" on. What about the college student looking for a part-time job so she can buy textbooks?

And has already been mentioned, a "living wage" varies wildly in different parts of the country. In some places you can rent a 3 bedroom house for $400/month, while in other places you couldn't rent a parking spot for that.

What about them? I'm sure they would appreciate being fairly compensated for the labor they provide. Minimum wage is one means of protection for employees from abuse of power by businesses. As I said before, living wage to me means more than just enough money to barely get by. It's true that living expenses vary across the country. This is why there is a federal minimum wage, but individual states (not sure about counties/cities) can make their own minimum wage above the federal minimum. This gives a general level of broad protection across the country and allows for other places to raise it as necessary if living expenses in that area are higher than average.

There are other, and perhaps better ways to accomplish this but everything has its drawbacks. Ziggurat mentioned expanding the earned income credit, but there are two reasons I don't like that idea much. First, it doesn't help someone who needs money soon. That minimum wage gives the person money they can use now to pay rent, gas and food. The earned income credit only helps at the end of the year, unless it has other uses beyond what I am familiar with. Second, it gives companies incentive to pay their employees poorly. With a minimum wage the money going to the employee comes from the business. Granted, this can be passed in part onto the consumer, but only to an extent as there is a price limit at which people won't purchase a product anymore. However, with earned income credit, it comes from the government, which in turn comes from taxes. I don't like the idea that the burden of paying employees a decent wage gets taken away from the business and onto tax payers in general.

Companies and the higher ups within them don't have the greatest track record for treating their lower rung employees with care. I just want businesses to share the revenue and profits earned from the business more evenly among employees. A minimum wage is one way of doing that, and like everything it has its drawbacks.

 

[respect]

I would take issue with that (and I think I would be joined by a large consensus of economic thinkers regardless of political persuasion), because favouring protectionism is something that is harmful to domestic and foreign citizens alike, thus the protectionist acts as if they don't care about their fellow nationals (whose income they lower by pushing retail prices higher) and care still less for foreigners (whose income they lower by cutting demand for their labour).

The protectionist is an inherently immoral character IMO who seeks to enrich a small minority of protected but unproductive folks at the expense of everyone else.

I would amend this to say that the protectionist may just be an idiot who doesn't understand that the policies he or she advocates harm their own countrymen. A person who isn't an idiot that advocates protectionism is definitely an immoral character as you describe.

 

[respect]

You seem to have mistaken me for someone else. I have no problem with a man like Warren Buffet being rich. He is not advocating for laws that would visciously screw wrokers the way that that fugly immigrant Murdoch does.

If he really wants to pay more taxes he is free to do so, no one is stopping him. One of these days you will learn that wealthy people who advocate higher tax rates for the rich but don't voluntarily pay higher taxes are being dishonest.

 

[respect]

Really? Raising the wage on 1% of the workforce will do all of that?

It depends on the hike. A 25 cent increase would affect few workers, a three dollar increase would affect a much larger minority and be much more noticeable in terms of higher prices and lost jobs. A six dollar increase would be even more noticeable and so on.

As it is in the United States, increases have typically not been particularly aggressive which has kept the unintended consequences small as well.

 

[respect]

All this talk of minimum wage.

If a company cannot do business while paying its employees a living wage, maybe the company shouldn't be in business at all.

So what should happen to all of the unskilled workers who would become unemployable under your plan? Would you prefer that they starve rather than having two or more people in the same household have to work?

 

[respect]

I'm self employed so there . But that said, Captain Obvious, clearly employers don't hold all the cards, particularly when it comes to skilled workers.

Skilled workers hold a lot of the deck.

 

[respect]

What about them? I'm sure they would appreciate being fairly compensated for the labor they provide. Minimum wage is one means of protection for employees from abuse of power by businesses. As I said before, living wage to me means more than just enough money to barely get by. It's true that living expenses vary across the country. This is why there is a federal minimum wage, but individual states (not sure about counties/cities) can make their own minimum wage above the federal minimum. This gives a general level of broad protection across the country and allows for other places to raise it as necessary if living expenses in that area are higher than average.

There are other, and perhaps better ways to accomplish this but everything has its drawbacks. Ziggurat mentioned expanding the earned income credit, but there are two reasons I don't like that idea much. First, it doesn't help someone who needs money soon. That minimum wage gives the person money they can use now to pay rent, gas and food. The earned income credit only helps at the end of the year, unless it has other uses beyond what I am familiar with. Second, it gives companies incentive to pay their employees poorly. With a minimum wage the money going to the employee comes from the business. Granted, this can be passed in part onto the consumer, but only to an extent as there is a price limit at which people won't purchase a product anymore. However, with earned income credit, it comes from the government, which in turn comes from taxes. I don't like the idea that the burden of paying employees a decent wage gets taken away from the business and onto tax payers in general.

Companies and the higher ups within them don't have the greatest track record for treating their lower rung employees with care. I just want businesses to share the revenue and profits earned from the business more evenly among employees. A minimum wage is one way of doing that, and like everything it has its drawbacks.

So, if I want to hire a cashier and the standard going rate is around $10 an hour I should pay them $15 and have to raise prices compared to my competitors to compensate? How long do think I will be in business?

Alternatively you suggest that profits for ownership could decline. Who will invest in my business when competitors don't follow suit?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

there is the problem with capitalists human beings.
greed.

Fixed it for you.

Capitalism works because it harnesses this greed that is innate to human beings, to motivate them to contribute to society.

Communism/socialism ultimately fails, because this same greed has the opposite effect, encouraging laziness and noncontribution, motivating people to try to live off the contributions of others rather than to try to contribute their own share.

 

[bikerdruid]

There is the problem with communists/socialists irrational hatred and envy of the rich. Irrational to the point that you even refuse to acknowledge that Ziggurat said helping the poor is possible, but that minimum wage was a poor way to do it. Not surprising that the point went right over the heads of the wealth haters.

i am not remotely envious of the rich. i have all i want and live comfortably and happily.
i also have no hatred of the rich, only disdain for those who have made their wealth with the sweat of others.
but, thanks for playing....

 

[thaiboxerken]

Biker, don't you know that if you feel the wealthy should be taxed a bit more than the middle-class that you must hate the wealthy? You see, it's because taxes are punishment.

 

[bikerdruid]

Biker, don't you know that if you feel the wealthy should be taxed a bit more than the middle-class that you must hate the wealthy? You see, it's because taxes are punishment.

in the minds of the filthy rich, taxes are viewed as punishment for the them, but 'just desserts' for the working class.

 

[Neally]

i also have no hatred of the rich, only disdain for those who have made their wealth with the sweat of others.

Yet your bigotry and prejudice shine through clearly when you cast all capitalists as "greedy" and you have"disdain" for someone becoming wealthy by providing employment to others and you think having property is theft. Nice try at hiding your bigotry.

 

[bikerdruid]

Yet your bigotry and prejudice shine through clearly when you cast all capitalists as "greedy" and you have"disdain" for someone becoming wealthy by providing employment to others and you think having property is theft. Nice try at hiding your bigotry.

nice attempt to gloss over what i actually said.
my disdain for swinish capitalists is in no way diminished.
anyone who makes money on the sweat of others is a parasite.

 

[trvlr2]

Apparently it does.

Ah, yes, one in ten of the unwashed ozzies....One in seven of the great amurrikans....

Ozzies win.

 

[respect]

anyone who makes money on the sweat of others is a parasite.

Please define what you mean by this.