Progressive Radio Rants -- Minimum Wage

Of course, there would be no jobs worth anything, no technology, no nothing, but hey -- screw THAT. You don't mind everybody being poor, so long as no "fat slob CEO" gets rich.
You seem to have mistaken me for someone else. I have no problem with a man like Warren Buffet being rich. He is not advocating for laws that would visciously screw wrokers the way that that fugly immigrant Murdoch does.
 
If the free market worked perfectly, there would be no need for minimum wage, since an employee could move to work somewhere else. But it doesn't, and in reality employers have much more power, and can also unite (form a cartel) to control prices and wages. So minimum wage as well as anti-monopoly laws are an attempt to put the balance back.
Precisely. It doesn't exist. It being Libertopia.
 
I contend that, if the working class has a minimum wage, it will create more jobs because it creates more demand for goods and services locally.
The economic flaw with that theory is analagous to the thermodynamic flaw with the theory of a perpetual motion engine.

"If we give our workforce a raise before tax of $X, then it is likely that $Y will leak back into top line revenue and we'll be able to hire more folks"

If you accept that Y < X, due to tax and other deductions being > 0, marginal propensity to consume being < 1, marginal propensity to buy your employer's own product being << 1 . . . then so far, so logical.

But that means this policy must be a profit-reducing strategy for the company. Ergo they have no reason to do it unless compelled by outside forces, such as competition for their employees, or legal wage floors, or trade union collective action. And in no circumstance will it lead to the firm hiring more people. More likely firing some and making the remainder do more work.

If, on the other hand, you think that Y = X or even Y > X, then you might as well believe in fairy dust.
 
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The economic flaw with that theory is analagous to the thermodynamic flaw with the theory of a perpetual motion engine.

"If we give our workforce a raise before tax of $X, then it is likely that $Y will leak back into top line revenue"

If you accept that Y < X, due to tax and other deductions being > 0, marginal propensity to consume being < 1, marginal propensity to buy your employer's own product being << 1 . . . then so far, so logical.

But that means this policy must be a profit-reducing strategy for the company. Ergo they have no reason to do it unless compelled by outside forces, such as competition for their employees, or legal wage floors, or trade union collective action.

If, on the other hand, you think that Y = X or even Y > X, then you might as well believe in fairy dust.

Unless the value of X forces the companies to take a hit in the area of executive wages in order to stay afloat and competitive, in which case the minimum wage acts as a kind of forced redistribution.

If this redistributed income is then spent on objects that actually increase economic activity, such as cars that people to travel further to work, better equipment for working from home, a healthier lifestyle that allows them to be more productive etc, rather than the wasteful luxuries that the rich choose such as fast cars and yachts, then lefty does have a case to say that a higher minimum wage could be good for the economy.

I think the trouble comes partly with the culture of entitlement to very high wages among executives that would more likely result in them laying off workers and continuing to pay themselves the same wages and just allow the company to take the hit, rather than taking it themselves. Plus, small businesses who aren't actually paying high executive wages but still can't afford higher employee wages would take a reasonable hit as well. On balance, i'd probably say that increasing top-end taxes and reducing taxes at the lower end would be a better method of achieving the same ends.
 
Unless the value of X forces the companies to take a hit in the area of executive wages in order to stay afloat and competitive, in which case the minimum wage acts as a kind of forced redistribution.
That is not in contention. Not by me anyway. But it does not create more demand for goods and services.

If this redistributed income is then spent on objects that actually increase economic activity, such as cars that people to travel further to work, better equipment for working from home, a healthier lifestyle that allows them to be more productive etc, rather than the wasteful luxuries that the rich choose such as fast cars and yachts, then lefty does have a case to say that a higher minimum wage could be good for the economy.
Reflects personal value judgements (biases) on your part, but does not actually make a case that any sort of spending is "more demand" relative to another. Buying a yacht increases demand exactly as much as buying a yacht's worth of computers. And I think this conversation has been had before so I intend to abandon it.

On balance, i'd probably say that increasing top-end taxes and reducing taxes at the lower end would be a better method of achieving the same ends.
My argument is also that tax/welfare transfers are superior to minimum wage laws (see here).

There are other rigidities in labour markets that IMO should also be abolished but not replaced by tax/welfare redistribution, because they are mostly regressive and coddle the "middle class" or the rich, redistributing away from the poorest (semi-institutionalised union pay scales, closed shop unions before they were made illegal, much of the activities of trade and professional licensing associations).
 
That is not in contention. Not by me anyway. But it does not create more demand for goods and services.

From a protectionist point of view, it may, because money earnt at the lower end of the pay scale is far more likely to stay in the country than be invested abroad. I'm not defending this idea since I like to consider myself a utilitarian, but lefty does have a point if he cares more about local investment than foreign, or perhaps takes issue morally with the conditions that the workers in other countries are subjected to enough to consider foreign investment less ethical than local investment.

Reflects personal value judgements (biases) on your part, but does not actually make a case that any sort of spending is "more demand" relative to another. Buying a yacht increases demand exactly as much as buying a yacht's worth of computers. And I think this conversation has been had before so I intend to abandon it.

In the long run, you could make the case that the computers will increase local productivity, in turn increasing local wealth which increases local demand. And yes, biases, but i'm proud of those biases.

There are other rigidities in labour markets that IMO should also be abolished but not replaced by tax/welfare redistribution, because they are mostly regressive and coddle the "middle class" or the rich, redistributing away from the poorest (semi-institutionalised union pay scales, closed shop unions before they were made illegal, much of the activities of trade and professional licensing associations).

Eh, the only closed shops I would take umbridge with over pay would perhaps be bar associations and medical registrations, but I see what you're driving at. But as you say, we've had this conversation enough times.
 
From a protectionist point of view, it may, because money earnt at the lower end of the pay scale is far more likely to stay in the country than be invested abroad. I'm not defending this idea since I like to consider myself a utilitarian, but lefty does have a point if he cares more about local investment than foreign, or perhaps takes issue morally with the conditions that the workers in other countries are subjected to enough to consider foreign investment less ethical than local investment.
I would take issue with that (and I think I would be joined by a large consensus of economic thinkers regardless of political persuasion), because favouring protectionism is something that is harmful to domestic and foreign citizens alike, thus the protectionist acts as if they don't care about their fellow nationals (whose income they lower by pushing retail prices higher) and care still less for foreigners (whose income they lower by cutting demand for their labour).

The protectionist is an inherently immoral character IMO who seeks to enrich a small minority of protected but unproductive folks at the expense of everyone else.
 
You seem to have mistaken me for someone else. I have no problem with a man like Warren Buffet being rich. He is not advocating for laws that would visciously screw wrokers the way that that fugly immigrant Murdoch does.
But everyone in the "investor class" you do have a problem with?
 
I would take issue with that (and I think I would be joined by a large consensus of economic thinkers regardless of political persuasion), because favouring protectionism is something that is harmful to domestic and foreign citizens alike, thus the protectionist acts as if they don't care about their fellow nationals (whose income they lower by pushing retail prices higher) and care still less for foreigners (whose income they lower by cutting demand for their labour).

The protectionist is an inherently immoral character IMO who seeks to enrich a small minority of protected but unproductive folks at the expense of everyone else.

That all assumes that the protectionist, in this case lefty, opposes trade, rather than only opposing the investment of domestic wealth in foreign markets. If you see the two alternatives as being
1. the redistribution of wealth to improve the local economy, or
2. the investment of said wealth into foreign markets

And you found yourself favouring 1, then you would be arguing from a point of view that wouldn't reduce demand for foreign labour or increase local retail prices, and could potentially see an increase in local demand over time through the improvement of the local economy. At which point, you'd have to weigh up the benefits of that versus the benefits to foreigners through investment in their countries.
 
I'm not sure how someone who argues for tariffs and subsidies can not be opposing trade. Additionally, favouring capital controls (opposing the investment of domestic ealth in foreign markets) is harmful to domestic and foreign incomes in the same way and for the same reasons. There is effectively no distinction.

There is also no mutual exclusivity nor conflict between (i) free trade and capital movement, and (ii) domestic redistributional tax and transfer policy so you have, I think, set up a false dilemma.
 
But everyone in the "investor class" you do have a problem with?
Only the ones who invest in businesses that take our resources and our jobs off-shore, who poison our environment and call it doing us a favor.
 
I would take issue with that (and I think I would be joined by a large consensus of economic thinkers regardless of political persuasion), because favouring protectionism is something that is harmful to domestic and foreign citizens alike, thus the protectionist acts as if they don't care about their fellow nationals (whose income they lower by pushing retail prices higher) and care still less for foreigners (whose income they lower by cutting demand for their labour).

Not a bit of it. We will still need lychees and durien and jack fruit and bamboo shoots and some of us actually like the style of Asian cook ware when we are cooking Asian style food.

I like Kikomon soy sauce for most applications, and the Japanese have done us the favor of opening a few facilities to make it here, using local soy beans. Win/win situation, right? They make better soy sauce than we can, and they are buying our farm produce to make it, directly benefitting our farmers, making up for the fact that our sorry soy sauce manufactures can't compete. There is still money flowing both ways, so those displaced American soy sauce workers can still find a job making ketchup or beer. As for the investors in thew losing American soy sauce company, the drongos should have invested in a vinegar brewery.

Toyota is quite another matter, though.

We make cars too, and we used to make really good ones, using local materials. (The auto manufacturers located in Detroit because there were some steel mills handy to the purpose. Ford had even considered making cars with plastic bodies based on soybeans, which are also rather easy to obtain in that part of the country.) We used to export quite a few cars.

So here comes Toyota, making cars here to be sold here, using mostly Japanese-made parts. The cars that they make are not going back to Japan for Japanese consumers, but the money is going back to Japan, mostly to Japanese investors. Sure, a few more American workers have jobs in Georgia or whatever impoverished state subsidized the Japanese to come in there, but it is at a loss of jobs in Detroit, and less of the money made by the company goes into the American ecconomy (or treasury.)

Now, assume for a moment that Americans have developed a way of preserving durien and developed a taste for it. If the inventors of the preserving method have a lick of sense, they are going to build their processing plant in Vietnam. A few Americans are going to make a living wage manufacturing the parts for the durien processing machinery and hauling it off to Vietnam. Now the Vietnamese farmers have a bigger market for their durien, a few more Vietnamese industrial workers have good jobs processing that durien. The farmers and packers have more money to spend buying the goods and services of their neighbors, and maybe a few of them can afford to buy American CDs, maybe even a Chevy.

That's how it is supposed to work.

Mostly, it doesn't, because there are more Japanese outfits working here on the Toyota model than on the Kikomon model.

And, instead of locating in Vietnam to pack trpical fruits that we cannot grow here, our companies are going there to make things that we used to make here. That just bleeds jobs out of this country and shifts the national wealth into fewer hands at the top of the food chain.

The protectionist is an inherently immoral character IMO who seeks to enrich a small minority of protected but unproductive folks at the expense of everyone else.

Friedmanite "free trade" benefits unproductive people at the top of the food chain. You are blaming the American worker for the sins of the executives.
 
s.

So here comes Toyota, making cars here to be sold here, using mostly Japanese-made parts. The cars that they make are not going back to Japan for Japanese consumers, but the money is going back to Japan, mostly to Japanese investors. Sure, a few more American workers have jobs in Georgia or whatever impoverished state subsidized the Japanese to come in there, but it is at a loss of jobs in Detroit, and less of the money made by the company goes into the American ecconomy (or treasury.)
No. Japanese build their cars solely in Japan, no money goes into American economy. Japanese build their cars in Ohio, Alabama, whatever, and their money goes into economy.

And, instead of locating in Vietnam to pack trpical fruits that we cannot grow here, our companies are going there to make things that we used to make here. That just bleeds jobs out of this country and shifts the national wealth into fewer hands at the top of the food chain.
See? if bleeding jobs out centralizes wealth, then shouldn't bringing jobs in, like Toyota does, decentralize wealth?
 
But everyone in the "investor class" you do have a problem with?

Apparently people like John Lennon and Warren Buffet do not belong to the "investor class". They kept all their money in a sock under the bed, I'm sure.
 
No. Japanese build their cars solely in Japan, no money goes into American economy. Japanese build their cars in Ohio, Alabama, whatever, and their money goes into economy.

No, it doesn't. Most of it goes back to Japan. We become a $100 a day drug dealer supporting a $110 dollar jones.

See? if bleeding jobs out centralizes wealth, then shouldn't bringing jobs in, like Toyota does, decentralize wealth?

No. I still sends money to the top of the food chain and, to make it worse, the top is in Japan. They are not building Toyotas for themselves, like Kikoman does soy sauce. If they were, they wouldl have the steering wheels on the right.
 
Precisely. It doesn't exist. It being Libertopia.
How come 99+% of jobs pay more than minimum wage? Wouldn't they all be minimum wage if companies only pay what the government mandates? Or do market forces in the Real World (not Libertopia) have far greater effect than government mandated minimum wages?
 
How come 99+% of jobs pay more than minimum wage? Wouldn't they all be minimum wage if companies only pay what the government mandates? Or do market forces in the Real World (not Libertopia) have far greater effect than government mandated minimum wages?

that's because 99.99% of statistics are made up on the spot. ;)
 
Evidence.
As of 2008 there were 129.4 million jobs in the United States. 2.2 million of these jobs paid wages at or less than minimum wage. So you're right, I overestimaated the number. 98.3% of jobs pay higher than minimum wage. And of the 2.2 million earning minimum wage or less, 1.35 million of those are part-time workers. 3% of jobs paying wages (as opposed to those paying salary) are minimum wage.

Source

I think it's obvious that market forces are far more influential than minimum wage laws as far as salary/wages are concerned.

eta: note this data excludes self-employed persons.
 
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As of 2008 there were 129.4 million jobs in the United States. 2.2 million of these jobs paid wages at or less than minimum wage. So you're right, I overestimaated the number. 98.3% of jobs pay higher than minimum wage. And of the 2.2 million earning minimum wage or less, 1.35 million of those are part-time workers. 3% of jobs paying wages (as opposed to those paying salary) are minimum wage.

Source

I think it's obvious that market forces are far more influential than minimum wage laws as far as salary/wages are concerned.

eta: note this data excludes self-employed persons.
Except we'd have to factor in the state min wages in order to get a clear picture.
 

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