Primitivism Discussion

[jiggeryqua]

So did you. You assumed that most of what I used is not only made in other countries but also but poor defenseless, abused people who have no basic commodities.

I made no such assumption - your position, your remarks, lead to the inevitable conclusion that some of what you enjoy is made in other countries. Is it? You didn't actually answer the question, but of course it was rhetorical, so you haven't really dodged it. It just looks that way.

The whole 'defenceless, abused' bit - that would be a strawman, right? This is turning into a comprehensive lesson

I, for one, think those very same people should enjoy the benefits of those services we have here. Not the other way around.

I think that would be marvellous, as would toasted snow be delightful, if similarly only wishful thinking.

Does low middle class count ?

Erm, yes, of course - 'about halfway up the pyramid' does indeed count as 'relatively priviliged'. Of course, just as there's always someone worse off than you, there's always somone better off than you too.

Now you're just being ridiculous. Moving the goalposts on another planet is fun, but ultimately pointless.

It was something of a reductio ad absurdum, I suppose - in the sense of smelling like a cheap rhetorical flourish. It seemed appropriate enough, though, in response to your response. "I am unaware of this happening in my country" was a ridiculous response. Don't blame me if I join in the ridiculous mood. Are you actually arguing with the argument, or are you just delighted to find another label? Are you saying you don't use products and raw materials sourced from cultures considerably less comfortable than your own, or are you just avoiding saying you do? Are you claiming that things you are unaware of don't happen? Can you vouch for your country, or your neighbourhood? Can you honestly claim you were saying anything other than 'I'm alright Jack'?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The question is serious. If you want to live a primitive lifestyle, why aren't you?

Because, in my experience, most hippies who sit around and think "we should get back in tune with nature and live a simpler lifestyle" tend to do it while sitting in Starbucks, drinking their "shade grown" coffee and wirelessly surfing the Internet, instead of actually getting out and doing it. Sort of like an "Earthday" bumper sticker on the back of an SUV.

 

[jiggeryqua]

Because, in my experience, most hippies who sit around and think "we should get back in tune with nature and live a simpler lifestyle" tend to do it while sitting in Starbucks, drinking their "shade grown" coffee and wirelessly surfing the Internet, instead of actually getting out and doing it. Sort of like an "Earthday" bumper sticker on the back of an SUV.

Visit a commune, meet the hippies who don't. Widen your experience.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Funny you should bring up North America. I'm not american myself, nor are the vast majority of human beings - something north americans seem oblivious too at times... Before europeans arrived in north america, it was largely beautiful. The parts of it still protected from modern society are still beautiful. The rest of it is ugly, littered with the products of failed experiments and beset with problems created by 'solutions'.

So buildings and cities can't be "beautiful"? What an odd outlook.

 

[Belz...]

I think that would be marvellous, as would toasted snow be delightful, if similarly only wishful thinking.

Then if it's not practically feasible, why did you even bring up these workers ?

Erm, yes, of course - 'about halfway up the pyramid' does indeed count as 'relatively priviliged'. Of course, just as there's always someone worse off than you, there's always somone better off than you too.

That works both ways.

"I am unaware of this happening in my country" was a ridiculous response.

A ridiculous response to a ridiculous statement. Par for the course.

 

[EGarrett]

Read any of my posts in the thread.

I scanned through five of them and there is no answer. Stop trying to evade me, because I'm aware you're doing it and I have a very good idea why. All you have to do is give me your justification for your professed "primitivism" that also encourages or allows use of high-speed internet.

 

[dudalb]

Because, in my experience, most hippies who sit around and think "we should get back in tune with nature and live a simpler lifestyle" tend to do it while sitting in Starbucks, drinking their "shade grown" coffee and wirelessly surfing the Internet, instead of actually getting out and doing it. Sort of like an "Earthday" bumper sticker on the back of an SUV.

QFT. They talk the talk but very few walk the walk.

 

[dudalb]

1) Less work.
I understand that the work week and the difficulty of work increased massively when we shifted to agriculture, and hasn't gotten much better since. I believe even if you live in a first world country and work a non-physical job you at least work more hours.

That is total romantic BS. Life in a pre agricultural society was nasty, brutish and short.

 

[dudalb]

I rarely use a flush toilet and don't miss it at all. They are a monumental waste of water and energy.

I'm quite happy to shower with a bucket of water and a jug, too.

What's that you say about not wanting to return to a medieval leval lifestyle?

 

[technoextreme]

That is total romantic BS. Life in a pre agricultural society was nasty, brutish and short.

Hell. My grandpa is 96 years old. I can testify that even in an agricultural society it was nasty and brutish. The man has a fifth grade education because he had to work on the farm after that. His life is not really short given that he is 96 years but then again a combination of luck and technology saved his life.

 

[Piscivore]

The most under-appreciated thing of modern life are hot showers and flush toilets.

rAmen.

 

[dudalb]

If the primitvists want to go back to a 16th centurn level of life, fine, let them; the problem I have is that they want to force the rest of us to join them.
Still amazed by the hatred of flush toilets shown here.........

 

[technoextreme]

rAmen.

Nah. Modern medicine is. Nothing says a lack of appreciation when you realize that we have the capability of keeping people alive that normally would have just dropped dead in the 16th century.

 

[Skeptic]

I wish every Primitivist would have to do that. The aching muscles alone would rid them of a lot their illusions.

Ah, but the primitivists never see themselves as one of those (yeeech) peasants. They see themselves as philosopher-kings, artists, rulers, reformers, scientists, gentlemen-farmers, knights in shining armor... anything except the 99% of humanity that was made up of peasants, servants, or slaves, so that the other 1% could live on a level vaguely similar to that the average person today.

Also, they never seem to imagine themselves -- or their children -- getting sick in such a world. Anything from toothaches to infant mortality will magically pass them by in that primitive, wonderful world.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Why do so few of us have laundry lines to dry our clothes? It's actually against my covenance. Why is clean laundry floating in the wind so detrimental to property values? We should re-examine our prejudices.

Not sure. I remember my mom hanging stuff out when I was a kid, even though we had a dryer. Also, covenants can be changed. Talk to your neighbors.

Why do we have grass to mow? There are other short plants that don't require mowing. What an enormous waste of gas and time.

This is something I've wondered since the days when my dad told me to mow the yard, when I would have rather done something else. Even ignoring the gas/carbon/environment stuff, think of the billions of wasted man hours that could be spent doing other stuff. Like watching the ballgame on TV.

You could plant native grasses, which require little water/fertilizer, but some of them grow taller than 6", and when they do, the city sends you a letter telling you to cut your grass. In the midwest and great plains, there is something called "buffalo grass", which only grows to about 5", and only needs to be cut once or twice a year. I've always wondered why people don't plant that.

Why don't more of us have gardens?

Gardens are a fun hobby, but aren't very efficient when you actually figure out the time and money you devote to them. You better enjoy that tomato - it cost you $4!

Why don't employers make it easier to work from home so there is less energy consumption?

How can they watch you if you are at home?

This one will happen eventually. It is slowly moving in that direction. Remember, the Internet is still relatively new. The young people in their 20's have grown up with it. When they are the "boss", and in their 40's, they will think nothing of letting their employees work from home on a regular basis. We just have to wait for the old people to die.

Or even crank-operated car windows instead of electric windows?

Well, the electric windows don't use electric from the power plant.

If we are really in a terrible recession, why isn't everyone canning stuff when it's cheap and in season?

See: Gardening.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

It occurs to me that some of the greatest cultural achievements of civilization have been made under what we would consider "primitive" conditions: the great pre-industrial artworks, music, literature, architecture...all produced without electricity or even steam engines.

True. But just as many are post-industrial.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I rarely use a flush toilet and don't miss it at all.

I'm afraid to ask....

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

So far I've seen no official comment from Southwest or the TSA. Also no comment from the flight attendant or anyone else in the flight. All we have is the woman's statment (and press conference) that she said this happened.

Huh?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Visit a commune, meet the hippies who don't. Widen your experience.

No.

 

[jiggeryqua]

So buildings and cities can't be "beautiful"? What an odd outlook.

Caution: Fire risk. I said no such thing - are you suggesting no buildings and cities are ugly? Never mind all the other man-made ugliness?