Primitivism Discussion

[Varanid]

I can't imagine anything less primitive than posting on the internet. What benefit or justification of primitivism is there that also encourages or allows posting on the internet?

Read any of my posts in the thread.

 

[jiggeryqua]

Just going to try a stream-of-consciousness thing here:

I can think of at least three advantages of a pre-revolution lifestyle:
[...]
I can also think of huge disadvantages:

1) You're going to die.

I hate to break it to you, but you're going to die too, however advanced our technology becomes. I'm guessing that your argument is actually "you're going to die [sooner than you would at the epicentre of technological development, assuming you're well placed in your society to take advantage of those developments]". Once again, the benefit you're suggesting is duration, with scant regard for quality.

Additionally, those advantages are largely limited to the priviliged and provided, in substantial part, by people whose lifestyle is essentially primitive, certainly exhausting and probably nasty, brutish and short.

 

[babycondor]

What about "The Empire Strikes Back"?

Was that achieved under "primitive" conditions?

Certainly a great film, but let's see how it holds up after a few centuries.

 

[JihadJane]

The most under-appreciated thing of modern life are hot showers and flush toilets.
And padded chairs.

I rarely use a flush toilet and don't miss it at all. They are a monumental waste of water and energy.

I'm quite happy to shower with a bucket of water and a jug, too.

 

[jiggeryqua]

The most under-appreciated thing of modern life are hot showers and flush toilets.
And padded chairs.

You know that your non-primitive lifestyle is relatively priviliged and built on the back of the vast mass of labour that has no access to and little hope of hot showers, flush toilets or padded chairs? Glad you're enjoying yours though - I'm sure you earned them. No, hang on, on reflection you were probably just fortunate to be born to them.

 

[ProBonoShill]

I am personally pretty low impact. I work as (among other things) an environmental educator (well, I manage enviro educators more these days...not as fun...). I earn green/simple lifestyle points legitimately in a variety of areas, I also lose points in a few. My worst vice is disposable coffee cups (what's worse is that this one would be easily remedied by simply remembering my own cup from home). So, I am definitely not trying to come across "holier than thou". I do try to generally be low impact and lead a simple lifestyle. Suffice to say, I walk my talk pretty honestly.

I do to an extent, and have tried to make it clear that personally, I think that the answer lies in between the two extremes (though probably closer to the primitive end than most people are comfortable with). I am interested in examining the issue completely.

But again, social reasons are the main impediment to me living a more primitive lifestyle.

Also, re-reading my OP, I can see how it seemed like I was saying that I was advocating the extreme position of the primitivist spectrum when I said "some of us" vs "others of us". I didn't mean for it to come across that way. I am clearly on the less extreme portion of the spectrum.

Are you really living in a more primitive way than the rest of us?

Maybe you could explain what makes your existence on this planet any less impactful than the majority of its inhabitants.

Sure you might not watch television, maybe you use public transportation to get around and occasionally read by candlelight.

Those activities are nice and helpful, but in the grand scheme of things you're not really "saving the planet".


I'm assuming you live in a developed country, where most of us wake-up in the morning and make use of our toilet. This toilet was manufactured in a plant somewhere, additionally the pipes connected to it were also manufactured in a plant somewhere else.

This toilet and these pipes are connected to a intricate sanitation system. The sanitation system required extensive digging. The machines needed for the digging were made at a factory, the thousands of parts for these machines were made at various other factories.

All these plants/factories require power and light. They also need things transported to them using large trucks, driving on well maintained (hopefully)paved roadways.

I'm sure you bathe in the morning as well, using a shower that has pressured hot water from your city's complex water system. This shower was made using fixtures and tiles manufactured at a plant, etc.

You probably get dressed soon after, wearing clothes that were made in a factory, that were cleaned in a washing machine and dried in a dryer, both of which were manufactured in a plant.

I'm sure you completed the above activities using some form of artificial illumination that required power.

I've probably only described 30-45 minutes of your daily life and I could go on (like detailing your breakfast... the food, table, fridge and stove involved),
but I think I've shown that unless you're willing to live in a straw hut on a deserted island somewhere in the middle of the pacific, it's very difficult to live a primitive life or anything close to resembling one.

 

[ProBonoShill]

I rarely use a flush toilet and don't miss it at all. They are a monumental waste of water and energy.

I'm quite happy to shower with a bucket of water and a jug, too.

Well that's great, unfortunately if the rest of us living in large cities followed suit we'd have quite a problem on our hands now wouldn't we?

 

[Belz...]

Like most people, I'd be happy to be a primitivist...as long as I'm chief of the tribe.

Perosnally I prefer living within the comforts afforded to me by high-level technology and medecine. I don't get this primitive lifestyle romanticism, though I'd rather not live in the center of a large metropolis (too much noise and traffic).

 

[Belz...]

Take your pick: 80 years of life in a tiny cell with no window, or 40 years outside? Duration is not the only measure.

Is it a bad time to point out that this is false dichotomy ?

 

[jiggeryqua]

Is it a bad time to point out that this is false dichotomy ?

No, it's merely a demonstration that duration is not the only issue. Add in another, more important factor and duration loses the consideration you afforded it. Clearly, it's not an 'actual' dichotomy (though it is actually a dichotomy), so perhaps it's fair to call it a false dichotomy. But to dismiss the validity of the argument because you've thought of a name for it seems cowardly. Unless you're claiming that duration is the only issue?

 

[jiggeryqua]

I think I've shown that unless you're willing to live in a straw hut on a deserted island somewhere in the middle of the pacific, it's very difficult to live a primitive life or anything close to resembling one.

I'm not sure where you got 'alone' from, but apart from that I'll sign up. Have you got an island, or were you just teasing us? Evidently, I'd prefer to do it in a community or tribe of primitivists...or, indeed, actual primitives who did and still do live in straw huts and wood shacks on islands and mainlands in the pacific and every other substantial geographical zone.

 

[Belz...]

Read any of my posts in the thread.

But the very fact that you USE the internet encourages all the things that primitivists hate.

 

[Belz...]

You know that your non-primitive lifestyle is relatively priviliged and built on the back of the vast mass of labour that has no access to and little hope of hot showers, flush toilets or padded chairs?

I'm not aware of such a workforce in my country.

 

[Belz...]

No, it's merely a demonstration that duration is not the only issue.

Understood, then.

 

[jiggeryqua]

I'm not aware of such a workforce in my country.

You know, somehow I knew you'd localise the issue. It doesn't happen in my country. No, but does your country import goods and raw materials at all? That's a rhetorical question, though my having a name for it shouldn't stop you answering it all the same, if you care to...at least for your own benefit. I expect you may also be in a relatively priviliged position in your own country - it surely doesn't happen in your neighbourhood, but I can't think of an advanced nation where the benefits are uniformly distributed and that has no pockets of poverty and primitive conditions. Chances are that it happens in your neighbourhood too, but you don't see it. Let's settle for "It doesn't happen in my house", or, to be more accurate, "I'm alright Jack".

 

[Alt+F4]

So far I've seen no official comment from Southwest or the TSA. Also no comment from the flight attendant or anyone else in the flight. All we have is the woman's statment (and press conference) that she said this happened.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I will elaborate on my personal stance as the thread develops (and I have more time), but I encourage all who are inclined towards primitivism to contribute. Some of us want to live a stone age existence, others merely a simpler, more "natural" (in quotes on purpose, don't go there) lifestyle.

You're free to do this anytime you want. No one is stopping you.

 

[Belz...]

You know, somehow I knew you'd localise the issue.

So did you. You assumed that most of what I used is not only made in other countries but also but poor defenseless, abused people who have no basic commodities.

I, for one, think those very same people should enjoy the benefits of those services we have here. Not the other way around.

I expect you may also be in a relatively priviliged position in your own country

Does low middle class count ?

Chances are that it happens in your neighbourhood too, but you don't see it. Let's settle for "It doesn't happen in my house", or, to be more accurate, "I'm alright Jack".

Now you're just being ridiculous. Moving the goalposts on another planet is fun, but ultimately pointless.

 

[Naddig74]

As someone who used to spend part of his Summer living in a Tipi and wearing dead animals, cooking over a fire, no refrigerator, no electric anything, not even a Coleman lantern, let me say this:
The most under-appreciated thing of modern life are hot showers and flush toilets.
And padded chairs.

This.

One of the main reasons I enjoy going out hiking around the hills in dreadful weather is that, even when you've only been out of the comfort zone for a few hours, when you return you have a finer appreciation of the things that modern technology has given us, and how much tougher and more unpleasant life can be without them. I'd say hot water on demand is the mark of civilisation.

 

[Naddig74]

.Nuclear survivor primitivism, anyone?

Ooooh, mememememe!