Primitivism Discussion

[Varanid]

I wanted to start a thread to facilitate the discussion of primitivism (in any of its forms).

I will elaborate on my personal stance as the thread develops (and I have more time), but I encourage all who are inclined towards primitivism to contribute. Some of us want to live a stone age existence, others merely a simpler, more "natural" (in quotes on purpose, don't go there) lifestyle.

As there will no doubt be a variety of primitivist views/paradigms, please be clear who you are addressing.

Oh, and feel free to use pejoratives like "tree hugger", "hippie", et al. It will allow those of us interested in a serious, skeptical discussion to simply ignore you.

Lively and Friendly, right? Let's see how long we can keep that going.

(Mods, I always seem to put new threads in the wrong place, I swear I am not being deliberately obtuse. Please move this thread as necessary).

 

[JihadJane]

When I complain about environmental degradation, what I really mean is that I want to return to the Stone Age or, at least, the Middle Ages.

That, and I just hate modernity. I don't know why. It's like Marmite. You either love it or hate it.

 

[Earthborn]

Interesting topic, but I'm afraid you won't find too many here who are inclined towards primitivism. This is after all the internet, which is more a transhumanist thing, really. Why don't you join us; resistance is futile.

(Mods, I always seem to put new threads in the wrong place, I swear I am not being deliberately obtuse. Please move this thread as necessary).

Annoying isn't it. It appears that every time someone thinks of something to "simplify" their life, the end result is more of all this mind blowing complexity. Someone thinks up a computer to make calculations easier, and before you know it you're wrestling with all sorts of rules and interface issues made up by people from all over the globe.

 

[Halfcentaur]

Personally I feel this concept is one too tangled up in romanticism. One can only step back and appreciate this way of life by having the privelege of living in it's alternative, in my opinion. The problem is, humans seem naturally inclined to live in groups of one hundred to three hundred people, and in such a society the rustic and romanticized notion of justice and values can function.

But the problem is we've gotten to the point where we live in much larger groups than that, and these rules no longer function in such a society. When you remove that personal aspect, impartial law is required, and technology, with all that technology brings with it.

So unless you're going to go be a hermit and leave your species, this seems like nothing but a romantic escapist fantasy to me.

 

[jiggeryqua]

Interesting topic, but I'm afraid you won't find too many here who are inclined towards primitivism. This is after all the internet, which is more a transhumanist thing, really. Why don't you join us; resistance is futile.

Annoying isn't it. It appears that every time someone thinks of something to "simplify" their life, the end result is more of all this mind blowing complexity. Someone thinks up a computer to make calculations easier, and before you know it you're wrestling with all sorts of rules and interface issues made up by people from all over the globe.

I am inclined towards primitivism (though I concede I may be in a very small group here). I lived on a commune for a while, we grew our own food, there was little in the way of technology. I have never been more content. I currently do not own, and have no intention of owning, a mobile phone or any sort of camera, let alone a digital video camera - though evidently I do appreciate the value of computers and the interwebs. I don't drive, I never have nor do I envisage wanting to.

You're right - those things that purport to be 'solutions' often merely create different problems. The nature of humanity has not changed. 'Development' and 'progress' are nothing more than a change of wallpaper and a rearrangement of the furniture.

 

[jiggeryqua]

So unless you're going to go be a hermit and leave your species, this seems like nothing but a romantic escapist fantasy to me.

Or the future. Assuming humanity survives, it will survive in a world in which this wasteful consumption of finite resources has had to cease. The romantic fantasy is that the prevailing technological petrochemical culture can be sustained.

 

[Varanid]

When I complain about environmental degradation, what I really mean is that I want to return to the Stone Age or, at least, the Middle Ages.

That, and I just hate modernity. I don't know why. It's like Marmite. You either love it or hate it.

Is my sarcasm detector malfunctioning? I have seen you take some heat for your views, but I am unclear if they are as stated, or a strawman of your thoughts has been erected.

No judgment from me either way.

So, you are a genuine anarcho-primitivist?

 

[Varanid]

Interesting topic, but I'm afraid you won't find too many here who are inclined towards primitivism. This is after all the internet, which is more a transhumanist thing, really. Why don't you join us; resistance is futile.

True, but some (such as myself) only advocate portions of the concept. I think there are aspects of life both helped and hindered by advancement. I guess this makes me a diet-primitivist / pseudo-primitivist / weak-primitivist.
I do embrace the advances in thought (yes, I do realize that most are a result of technology), medicine (ditto), and communication/art (not as much, but still).
I do not embrace the basic lifestyle, consumerism, and the types of stress that modern life entails.
For me, it is far more nuanced than "technology bad, eat dead carcass good".

Annoying isn't it. It appears that every time someone thinks of something to "simplify" their life, the end result is more of all this mind blowing complexity. Someone thinks up a computer to make calculations easier, and before you know it you're wrestling with all sorts of rules and interface issues made up by people from all over the globe.

I really wish I could hear the tone in your voice when this was said. It would help me understand whether this was a veiled shot or not. A thousand apologies that I couldn't decide if it would be more properly a social or technology issue. Likewise, if this wasn't a shot, my apologies for taking it as such.
*shrugs*

 

[Varanid]

Personally I feel this concept is one too tangled up in romanticism. One can only step back and appreciate this way of life by having the privelege of living in it's alternative, in my opinion.

I absolutely see this point. I am sure a Hunter Gatherer in PNG would trade places with me in a heartbeat. Didn't Plato say something about this though?


Again, as I was getting at in another reply, I think that the most sensible path is one that combines the best of both worlds. [UNDERSTATEMENT]This is probably hard to accomplish. [/UNDERSTATEMENT]

The problem is, humans seem naturally inclined to live in groups of one hundred to three hundred people, and in such a society the rustic and romanticized notion of justice and values can function.

But the problem is we've gotten to the point where we live in much larger groups than that, and these rules no longer function in such a society. When you remove that personal aspect, impartial law is required, and technology, with all that technology brings with it.

So unless you're going to go be a hermit and leave your species, this seems like nothing but a romantic escapist fantasy to me.

Not for me, I tend towards primitivism but not necessarily anarchism. I think that some form of leadership/organization is appropriate. This is not without precedent, many other social species have social structure.

 

[rwguinn]

As someone who used to spend part of his Summer living in a Tipi and wearing dead animals, cooking over a fire, no refrigerator, no electric anything, not even a Coleman lantern, let me say this:
The most under-appreciated thing of modern life are hot showers and flush toilets.
And padded chairs.

 

[Varanid]

One other point:

I won't be adopting a truly primitive lifestyle anytime soon as it is hard to get chicks this way. I kid, but only a bit. Sexual selection (and the associated drives, etc.) is a valid factor in decision making.

Were there more people who felt this way, I may be more inclined to live this way. However as Half Centaur said above (and I agree) it is not really easy to do so and maintain the type of social interactions that I (and I imagine most people) want.

 

[dudalb]

A couple of years ago I volunteered for a living history program at a local historic site;we would do the work, for a weekend ,that we have done as a farmer in 1870.
I wish every Primitivist would have to do that. The aching muscles alone would rid them of a lot their illusions.
And this is just 1870, where you had hand tools that benefited from the Industrial revolution.What is would be like to do that with Medieval Technology, I do not even want to think about.

 

[dudalb]

As someone who used to spend part of his Summer living in a Tipi and wearing dead animals, cooking over a fire, no refrigerator, no electric anything, not even a Coleman lantern, let me say this:
The most under-appreciated thing of modern life are hot showers and flush toilets.
And padded chairs.

Living History certainly rids one of a lot illusions about "The Good Old Days."
Mountain Man Group, right?

 

[Varanid]

As someone who used to spend part of his Summer living in a Tipi and wearing dead animals, cooking over a fire, no refrigerator, no electric anything, not even a Coleman lantern, let me say this:
The most under-appreciated thing of modern life are hot showers and flush toilets.
And padded chairs.

I haven't lived as such for a truly extended period (at most 15 days or so), but I hear ya!

I do think that we would adapt to these things relatively easily over the long run. I know I wasn't sure about losing TV, but a few years later, I really don't miss it.

Cold showers do suck though...lol. I had to go about 18 months without hot water because of my slum lord a few years back. It did get easier, but never very pleasant.

 

[Varanid]

A couple of years ago I volunteered for a living history program at a local historic site;we would do the work, for a weekend ,that we have done as a farmer in 1870.
I wish every Primitivist would have to do that. The aching muscles alone would rid them of a lot their illusions.
And this is just 1870, where you had hand tools that benefited from the Industrial revolution.What is would be like to do that with Medieval Technology, I do not even want to think about.

I look at it differently.
Our bodies have evolved to be able to handle the riggors of "natural" (again, don't fixate on the word...I know...) lifestyle. The problem is that we have become poor physical specimens (by and large).

Also, you were engaging in agriculture, no? I *think* most primitivists are striving for a hunter-gatherer / stone age / 10k BC lifestyle. Either way, I am in pretty good shape and already do quite a bit of active labor 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. I am sure I (personally) would trade some of our current stresses for that type particular type of physical stress. It can't be that much harder than a high level manual labor job in our current society (especially considering non-western societies).

 

[EGarrett]

I wanted to start a thread to facilitate the discussion of primitivism (in any of its forms).

I will elaborate on my personal stance as the thread develops (and I have more time), but I encourage all who are inclined towards primitivism to contribute. Some of us want to live a stone age existence, others merely a simpler, more "natural" (in quotes on purpose, don't go there) lifestyle.

What's stopping you? Put the computer away and walk out to the woods.

 

[Debaser]

Also, you were engaging in agriculture, no? I *think* most primitivists are striving for a hunter-gatherer / stone age / 10k BC lifestyle. Either way, I am in pretty good shape and already do quite a bit of active labor 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. I am sure I (personally) would trade some of our current stresses for that type particular type of physical stress. It can't be that much harder than a high level manual labor job in our current society (especially considering non-western societies).

But unless you're living the South Seas Island paradise life of picking fruit from any tree and having fish leap into your nets, then you're faced with the stress of finding enough food for you, and any dependants every day, day in day out.

And if you give in to nasty agriculture to provide some guaranteed minimum level of sustenance you get the joy of becoming beholden to the vagaries of the weather.

Like most people, I'd be happy to be a primitivist...as long as I'm chief of the tribe.

 

[Varanid]

What's stopping you? Put the computer away and walk out to the woods.

I appreciate the warmth and thought. Thank you for contributing to the discussion.

 

[Varanid]

But unless you're living the South Seas Island paradise life of picking fruit from any tree and having fish leap into your nets, then you're faced with the stress of finding enough food for you, and any dependants every day, day in day out.

I would never say that a primitive lifestyle is without stress- it is a different type of stress. Of course it has stress, all species experience stress.

I do think some of these stresses would be preferable to some of the types of stress we experience in a western lifestyle.

And if you give in to nasty agriculture to provide some guaranteed minimum level of sustenance you get the joy of becoming beholden to the vagaries of the weather.

My bolding.

Never said that. I am interested in exploring the topic rationally. Agriculture does have drawbacks, it is also wildly productive.

I am not sure for instance, that it is advantageous for our health to consume as many grains as we do. On the flip side, I think farming blueberries, tomatoes, or similar is probably very advantageous for our health.

 

[JihadJane]

When I complain about environmental degradation, what I really mean is that I want to return to the Stone Age or, at least, the Middle Ages.

That, and I just hate modernity. I don't know why. It's like Marmite. You either love it or hate it.

Is my sarcasm detector malfunctioning? I have seen you take some heat for your views, but I am unclear if they are as stated, or a strawman of your thoughts has been erected.

No judgment from me either way.

So, you are a genuine anarcho-primitivist?

Yes, my little wink was supposed to denote sarcasm!

My post was characterizing comments I have received on JREF when I have criticized aspects of modern industrial civilization. Some posters instantly accuse me of wanting to go back to the Middle Ages.


Yesterday, in one of the threads discussing the Japanese nuclear crisis, posters appeared unable to flummoxed by my suggestion that "tree huggers" could be motivated by a love of life rather than, as one poster claimed, a simple, unexplained, hatred of modernity.

Sorry for any confusion. I was not familiar with the term "Primitivism" and assumed it was derogatory. At some times of my life I have sought to tread very lightly on the Earth.