Primitivism Discussion

[MatildaGage]

You killed a member of your family ?

I don't understand your question, posed in response to my statement about negative population growth. It doesn't make sense.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Simple math ..

Did you mean ' 0 ' population growth ?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

respectful questions....what a pleasant change....quite unusual, as you have seen.

certainly, there are problems that can not be fixed with local herbs.
however, the are herbs in the woods, or in my garden, that can treat a variety of ailments and conditions.

my ex makes a wonderful ointment out of the winter buds of balsam poplar and beeswax that is useful for many skin conditions.
yarrow, which grows very commonly, will staunch bleeding.
plantain is good for eye infections, and insect bites and stings.
feverfew for headaches and migrains.
motherwort for menstral difficulties.
st john's wort for depression and anxiety.
willow bark for anti inflammatory.
hawthorn berries for irregular heartbeat.

just to name a few.
there are dozens of others in the woods and several more in the garden.

Wow, these remedies would be so much cheaper than modern drugs. I bet Big Pharma^(tm) is suppressing these natural cures!

 

[Skeptic]

I don't doubt any of this. But were we to revert to some version of a primitive lifestyle today, I envision it as the enlightened individuals that we are. Disagree?

No.

But that is exactly the problem.

As Richard Neuhaus pointed out (in In Defense of People),prmitivism is simply a form of (possibly unconscious) racism. It's fantasy for those who are sick of the fact that there are so many inferior people around -- all those folks in the third world, for example -- and wish for a clean, empty world full of people like them, of "enlightened indiviuduals".

That's why they never figure the 90% of the population which must be illiterate peasants in a primitive world into their story of this "ideal" society. The whole point of imagining a "perfect" primitive society is to imagine a world where such riff-raff doesn't exist.

 

[Skeptic]

The history of medicine in 10 seconds:

- Here, eat this root.
- This root is heathen. Here, say this prayer.
- This prayer is superstititous. Here, take this pill.
- This pill is unnatural. Here, eat this root.

 

[Skeptic]

By the way, for those dreaming of a "natural" primitive world of "enlightened individuals": how long exactly will it stay enlightened, society not being specialized enough for things like schools, books, or teachers, and children having to spend most of the time in the fields with their parents?

The next generation will go right back to Lord of the Flies like society, chances are. Those who survive that annoying 50%+ child mortality rate, I mean.(*) There goes your fantasy world of "enlightened" folks without those billions of riff-raff: in the primitive world, your sons and daughters will be the riff-raff.




(*) Yes, I too learned from this thread that it isn't that bad; the riff-raff are used to it - er, I mean, "societies where infant mortality is high find psychological mechanisms to cope". And to think that peasant in A Tale of Two Cities had the nerve to complain when his child was ran over by a nobleman's carriage. How rude of him.

 

[mike3]

No.

But that is exactly the problem.

As Richard Neuhaus pointed out (in In Defense of People),prmitivism is simply a form of (possibly unconscious) racism. It's fantasy for those who are sick of the fact that there are so many inferior people around -- all those folks in the third world, for example -- and wish for a clean, empty world full of people like them, of "enlightened indiviuduals".

So what is the right attitude to take to these so-called "inferior" peoples (in which way? Economically? Wouldn't 'primitivism' then be reducing oneself to that 'inferior' level anyway, and even below it?)?

 

[phantomb]

As Richard Neuhaus pointed out (in In Defense of People),prmitivism is simply a form of (possibly unconscious) racism.

What was his argument? Google isn't turning up a lot about the book.

It's fantasy for those who are sick of the fact that there are so many inferior people around -- all those folks in the third world, for example -- and wish for a clean, empty world full of people like them, of "enlightened indiviuduals".

Again, please explain this conclusion. Would you say this is true of the people who have promoted primitivism or elements of primitivism in this thread?

Also, surely virtually everyone, racist or not, would prefer a "clean, empty world full of people like them". I think a clean, empty world full of people like me would be a much better place, and it's not because of my race.

That's why they never figure the 90% of the population which must be illiterate peasants in a primitive world into their story of this "ideal" society.

I think the reason why nobody in this thread has really gone ahead and proposed a specific idea for how to implement primitivism is that the people here are not willing to ignore such facts.

And, of course, in the case where we're talking about looking back to before agriculture, there were no peasants.

The whole point of imagining a "perfect" primitive society is to imagine a world where such riff-raff doesn't exist.

Surely the point of imagining any "perfect" society is to imagine such a world. I know I couldn't call a society "perfect" unless the entire population was happy, healthy, well educated, etc.

 

[Belz...]

respectful questions....what a pleasant change....quite unusual, as you have seen.

certainly, there are problems that can not be fixed with local herbs.
however, the are herbs in the woods, or in my garden, that can treat a variety of ailments and conditions.

my ex makes a wonderful ointment out of the winter buds of balsam poplar and beeswax that is useful for many skin conditions.
yarrow, which grows very commonly, will staunch bleeding.
plantain is good for eye infections, and insect bites and stings.
feverfew for headaches and migrains.
motherwort for menstral difficulties.
st john's wort for depression and anxiety.
willow bark for anti inflammatory.
hawthorn berries for irregular heartbeat.

just to name a few.
there are dozens of others in the woods and several more in the garden.

It's unfortunate that real science hasn't caught up with you. It'd be far cheapter for us to replace current medecine with those ! I wonder why...

 

[Varanid]

No.

But that is exactly the problem.

As Richard Neuhaus pointed out (in In Defense of People),prmitivism is simply a form of (possibly unconscious) racism. It's fantasy for those who are sick of the fact that there are so many inferior people around -- all those folks in the third world, for example -- and wish for a clean, empty world full of people like them, of "enlightened indiviuduals".

That's why they never figure the 90% of the population which must be illiterate peasants in a primitive world into their story of this "ideal" society. The whole point of imagining a "perfect" primitive society is to imagine a world where such riff-raff doesn't exist.

I have to disagree in my case (noted that I am not describing a strict primitivism by any means). I accept that it is hypothetical, because of the population- that is where the discussion starts to be academic for me. I'm not interested in killing off great swaths of people, thanks.


I have to agree, that sure, I wish the world were full of more people who thought like me. Doesn't everyone? I don't think this has anything to do with my primitivism (loosely defined), more to do with being a human.

 

[bikerdruid]

No.

But that is exactly the problem.

As Richard Neuhaus pointed out (in In Defense of People),prmitivism is simply a form of (possibly unconscious) racism.

................................

That's why they never figure the 90% of the population which must be illiterate peasants in a primitive world into their story of this "ideal" society. The whole point of imagining a "perfect" primitive society is to imagine a world where such riff-raff doesn't exist.

gee skeptic...didn't take you very long to pull the racism card.
i'm surprised you didn't go straight to the 'primitivism is antisemitic' card...

why do you think that primitivists need to be illiterate?

 

[Skeptic]

So what is the right attitude to take to these so-called "inferior" peoples ?

One way is to try and make them raise their standard of living, instead of insisting we lower ours while eliminating them (either through starvation or through forced sterilization -- see a previous post of mine in this thread).

THAT, of course, is completely out of the question. For the last 50 years the likes of Ehrlich have been predicting that if we dare try to give the peasants in China or India a quality of life similar to that of the west, the "overtaxed planet" will collapse.

Of course, the idea that giving the riff-raff the good life will only spoil them, and will lead to dire, divine punishment for violating the natural order, is as old as class differences themselves...

 

[Skeptic]

why do you think that primitivists need to be illiterate?

Because primitive societies have no (or far, far fewer) printing, schools, or teachers, to say nothing of universities - not to mention none of those annoying, unnecessary things like electricity or steam power needed for mass production of books or newspapers or their distribution. So education will revert back to the pre-printing, pre-modern-society standard.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Wow, these remedies would be so much cheaper than modern drugs. I bet Big Pharma^(tm) is suppressing these natural cures!

(I realise you're making fun, but I feel someone should explain to Biker)

I am absolutely 100% certain all of those plants are either sold as, or were used to make drugs. In fact, I know for a fact St John's Wort is regulated and sold here in the UK (there was a big fuss about it a few years back because it's potentially harmful) and willow bark is where asprin came from originally. Now it's more effective than just taking willow bark, but they also sell that too, so you're spoiled for choice, frankly.

 

[Belz...]

Because primitive societies have no (or far, far fewer) printing, schools, or teachers, to say nothing of universities - not to mention none of those annoying, unnecessary things like electricity or steam power needed for mass production of books or newspapers or their distribution. So education will revert back to the pre-printing, pre-modern-society standard.

Bikerdruid obviously would be part of the elite scribe caste, Skeptic.

 

[bikerdruid]

(I realise you're making fun, but I feel someone should explain to Biker)

I am absolutely 100% certain all of those plants are either sold as, or were used to make drugs. In fact, I know for a fact St John's Wort is regulated and sold here in the UK (there was a big fuss about it a few years back because it's potentially harmful) and willow bark is where asprin came from originally. Now it's more effective than just taking willow bark, but they also sell that too, so you're spoiled for choice, frankly.

and your point?
i am well aware that these plants are nothing new.
just thought you might take an opportunity to 'talk down ' to me?

 

[bikerdruid]

Bikerdruid obviously would be part of the elite scribe caste, Skeptic.

would you forget how to read and write overnight?
maybe i just have better knowledge retention that you do.

 

[Varanid]

I do have to object to the notion that education would necessarily stop in a primitivist culture.

While the paradigm I have been discussing would easily contain systems for distributing knowledge, it could still be done in a scenario more similar to what BD is advocating- a more strict primitivism (please correct me if I am wrong).

Knowledge was passed down in a variety of ways for ages before the invention of the printing press. Was it as effective? Of course not, but it is incorrect in my view to assume that the principles of education would cease to exist just because we didn't have a fancy machine to print the books with.

I won't speak for any others, but in my version of primitivism I don't expect everyone to just jettison knowledge that has already been accumulated, as has been alluded to several times. Quite the contrary, when someone wants to build a hut, I would hope that they would use basic geometric skills. When someone wants to build a fire, they will be aided by the basic understanding of combustion, etc.

I would like a (somewhat) primitive culture, not an ignorant one. The two are not necessarily linked.

 

[Varanid]

BikerDruid- I do disagree with your approach relative to a few aspects, but I think I understand your thinking, and would like to understand better. The lack of medicine in your paradigm does trouble me (though I don't exclude the use of bona fide natural remedies what so ever).

Can you comment at all about dosages? Is it an intuitive system, or is there a standardized application of it? For instance, if I am suffering from a high fever, and species X can relieve my symptoms, how do I know how much to take?

(I understand there are thousands of examples, pick a commonly known species if you can, for an example).

Thanks in advance.

 

[BenBurch]

You don't need Primitivism to have ZPG. I had my two and then <SNIP>.