The Central Scrutinizer
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2001
- Messages
- 53,099
Primitivism Discussion
- Thread starter Varanid
- Start date
The Central Scrutinizer
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2001
- Messages
- 53,099
I suspect you'll find it's harder than you expect. In a primitive society, dark ages tend to quickly follow.
They're anarchists! At least until mom & dad kick them out of the basement.
Their flag looked familiar... until I remembered it is the same as the flag of the IDF's armored corps. Go figure.
bikerdruid
Philosopher
for some...but, there are many degrees of 'primitivism, in reality.
there has been a great deal written on the topics of 'green anarchy' and primitivism.
most will agree on some basic principles. almost all envision a return to the small hunter-gathered tribes, as you saw. however, there is a great deal of diasgreement among primitivists as to whether all culture must disappear as well. literacy and learning is a big seperater for primitivists.
Earthborn
Terrestrial Intelligence
Not so sure about CAT scans? Personally I think the most important aspect of modern medicine is not the drugs or the syringes, but effective diagnosis that involves more than asking the patient how s/he feels, and looking at their urine. The greatest advance we made was by making it possible to look what is wrong with a patient on the inside without having to open him/her up, and if it is necessary to open him/her anyway having the ability to properly close him/her again.
I don't think you can pick and choose so easily when it comes to modernity. We have weaved such a tangled web of mutually interdependent technological infrastructures that we can't just untangle some parts of it and leave out the rest.
jiggeryqua
Illuminator
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- Dec 9, 2009
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- 4,107
Sample size of 'one' again...can you detect a 'tendency' from one example?
Belz...
Fiend God
Which one will _you_ live in ?
Not sure what you mean by that. Most people ?
Good for them. Of course it's a delusional dream that practically no one will agree to. Most people have the good sense to realise that modern society gives us more benefits than ills.
Are they just musing about it, or seriously considering it ? Who in their right mind would wonder if knowledge is a bad thing ?
Earthborn
Terrestrial Intelligence
Here is a question primitivists might want to ask themselves: "Do I like my washing machine?"
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
They're anarchists! At least until mom & dad kick them out of the basement.
QFT
I love Hans Rosling's talks (not to mention the pretty graphs).
Thanks for that, I hadn't yet caught this one. A recurring theme in his talks though, is that many poor people (almost the definition of 3rd world) have large families and high infant mortality. I feel that in the system I am trying to construct, these would not be issues. As I stated before, I embrace knowledge, and some degree of medicine (I will address those comments below).
Additionally, I spoke with an archaeologist at work today. (I have to remain anonymous, so won't cite him by name. Believe me, don't believe me, whatever). He strongly challenged the notion that HG societies feature long work weeks to feed oneself. His studies of living HGs showed him that on average adults spend apprx. 15 hours per week feeding themselves. (This is tangentially relevant to the argument about leisure time as referenced by Mr. Rosling).
I just got home from work and logged on, I will try to find some references I can cite.
I will say that again, though many primitivists (of whatever definition) may not have experienced the things they advocate- I have experienced some of them.
I washed all of my clothes by hand for about 18 months. Not fun, but I would gladly trade that for having to sit in traffic, etc. Granted, I didn't have to bang them against a rock, and I was in my bathtub not a stream- but I have lived for an extended period in such a fashion.
(Just for the record, during this same period I lived without climate control (at work, home, or car- and I am in the deep south), without any cooking appliances or a working refrigerator-I cooked every night over an open fire outside, or ate ready-to-eat food like nuts and berries. I had no bed, hot water, internet, or TV either).
Apologies if this doesn't read very smoothly. Long day, tired, etc.
The Central Scrutinizer
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2001
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- 53,099
Just out of curiosity, what did this accomplish? Or what did you hope to accomplish by doing it?
I think that basic hygiene and germ theory have probably been more helpful from a "number of lives saved" analysis than cutting edge diagnostic techniques, but your point is noted. At an arbitrary point, I will decide that "x" is enough medicine/tech, which I do probably differ from many of you. We are crazy fortunate as a species to live like we do, for as long as we do. This would be one of the finer points of the discussion.
I (obviously, as it is my described intention) disagree, but do recognize that this isn't an easy task.
Piscivore
Smelling fishy
BenBurch
Gatekeeper of The Left
Absolutely correct.
But a population density of no more that one per square mile of arable land seems to be the limit. I wonder who will volunteer to be the first to take hemlock?
You got it backwards, I did it because I had no choice.
Divorce* + Financial Ruin + working at a non-profit = Hunter Gatherer living in a house not up to code owned by a complete d-bag of a landlord. There were other complicated reasons I couldn't move.
While it did suck, you have to understand I would gladly deal with all of that again if it meant an end to some of the problems I find with modern culture. As it stands, short of being a recluse, I have to live in this modern society, ergo have to play the same game to some extent if I want access to the breeding pool.
*Not that it matters, but for the record- not my fault. Well, unless you consider not being able to anticipate someone going bat-**** insane on you, my fault. In that case, then yeah, big time.
I know the thread has gone long and you may have missed it, but I view this entirely academically or as an uber-long timescale goal. I am not interested in mass murder, suicide, or genocide. We'd likely have to cut the population by what, 80%?
So in other words, yeah, I agree with you. But I am not sure that anyone is actually advocating for that (and I know I am not).
Come on, nobody knows what would happen if my system* were in place. I was just trying to be careful not to overstate my knowledge of the situation.
*Whatever the hell that turns out to be.
MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
I know one thing.
Lots of people would die needlessly.
I'm not being melodramatic or attempting to insult you here, I'm absolutely serious. I don't know where you want to make the cut in medicine, but I can tell you that no matter how far back you put your limit, people will die who would have been saved with all modern medical technology.
Without meaning to sound like a douche, if you had proposed to cut back medicine in 1987, the year I was born, by even 6 months worth of medical advances, I would have died before I was a week old.
No insult taken at all, appreciate the discussion.
At the risk of sending this thread plummeting off the cliff, we already ration health care. I am sure there is a child in a 3rd world country that has died because he/she did not have access to the same care you did.
As a (global) society we decide this is acceptable.