Primitivism Discussion

[bikerdruid]

No argument, then ?

argument?....against what?....you said nothing.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I also would like to encourage any who advocate a primitive (by whatever definition) lifestyle, but do not agree with me in the need for basic medical services, hygiene, etc, to elaborate on your thoughts.

Perhaps I could be swayed this direction as well. As it stands, I can't endorse a lifestyle that is without these advancements.

I have a question that may have already been asked and answered. What level of medical care do you want to have in your primitivist/simpler lifestyle?


For example, if I were born in the 16th Century, I'd have died before my first birthday. Hell, if I'd been born in the 1970's I'd have died before my first birthday. I consider that to be quite a big deal.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I would rather worry about feeding myself in my historic habitat (which I am confident could be done) than worrying about navigating the complexity of the modern world we live in.

What experience do you have with feeding yourself, that makes you confident that you could do so, in the absence of modern agribusiness ?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Are these "gurus" who advocate premature death a few random nutters or the norm?

Most vocal opponents to overpopulation that I'm familiar with--and I've read quite a bit about it--advocate controlling population growth, not premature death.

And they (me included) do their part by deliberately creating a family with negative population growth.

You killed a member of your family ?

What exactly do you consider premature death ?

 

[Xephyr]

You people do realize that before electricity came along there were such things as outhouses, indoor running water, medications, medical equipment, doctors, engineers, chemists, steam/horse/hand operated machinery, windmills, wood stoves, glass containers, pocket watches, shoes, etc etc, right ?

Or are you hyperboling caveman ways when they didn't know what a lightning bolt was solely for the purpose of getting a moot point across ?





As for myself, I prefer being able to order my jambalaya fettucini from Boston Pizza and having it delivered right to my door on a Saturday night whilst watching a movie on my big screen tv... However if forced (for whatever unexpected reason), I think we as a society could not only survive a "pre-industrialization" lifestyle, but thrive as well, just not in a way that we're used to today.

Like I said before, necessity is the mother of invention.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

One thing I totally hate is to see my employees (a.k.a. government employees paid by my compulsory taxes) spending their days mowing little medians and curbs with expensive equipment and lots of gas. How ludicrous! Plant clover or whatever, and let it go. Or wildflowers.

I've always wondered why States spend tens of thousands of hours and millions of dollars mowing along hundreds of miles of highways. It makes no sense. Plant it with native grasses or clover or whatever. It's idiotic.

 

[quixotecoyote]

You people do realize that before electricity came along there were such things as outhouses, indoor running water, medications, medical equipment, doctors, engineers, chemists, steam/horse/hand operated machinery, windmills, wood stoves, glass containers, pocket watches, shoes, etc etc, right ?

Or are you hyperboling caveman ways when they didn't know what a lightning bolt was solely for the purpose of getting a moot point across ?

It rather depends. Primitivism usually pushes us back past organized agriculture, which rather undercuts the society you need for most of that list of goodies. But Purple is still working on a custom position that may or may not be close enough to call primitivism.

 

[BenBurch]

Hehe.

Primitivists fail to realize that without agriculture, animal husbandry or food storage 90% of their time will be devoted to finding enough food to survive or an animal to skin to make some shoes. Oh yeah and going to the toilet is now a chore where you have to squat over a hole you've dug. And there's no bog-roll, you have to use your hand or a leaf.

Idyllic, carefree, leisured lifestyle it was not. More like living on the knife-edge of survival.

Actually the surviving hunter-gatherers we have been able to study devote less of their time to survival than those in agricultural societies. But they tend to die of violence at a not-advanced age.

 

[mike3]

Actually the surviving hunter-gatherers we have been able to study devote less of their time to survival than those in agricultural societies. But they tend to die of violence at a not-advanced age.

Hmm. So does this mean that although it needs less "work" than agro (here meaning traditional hand agro), it has more war?

 

[Skeptic]

the woods around my home are rich with medicinal herbs, barks and roots.
i have studied them and used them for 20 years.

These natural medicines work great! Until you have cancer, or a broken arm, or diabetes, or a serious lung infection, or heart disaease, or...

... then, suddenly, barks and roots don't seem that sufficient, and its off to the (bleeech) heartless, annoying, unnatural hospital for treatment.

 

[Skeptic]

Hmm. So does this mean that although it needs less "work" than agro (here meaning traditional hand agro), it has more war?

In fact, yes, since once you are a farmer territory means much more than it used to. It's not worth it, usually, as a hunter-gatherer, to fight over territory, since you can gather somewhere else and are nomadic anyway. But the territory where you planted your crops is a life and death issue for the farmer.

 

[Skeptic]

Welcome to the theory of Karma !

Ehrlich, like most primitivists, is not about to let the lives of a few billions lousy people stop him from saving humanity.

 

[CORed]

Interesting. I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth. Why? Because I love humanity and want to see it succeed beyond our wildest dreams, advancing technology at fantastic rates.

It's been a long time since I read the Foundation series, but IIRC, Trantor was supported by several agricultural planets. I think the Trantorization of Earth will have to wait until we find or terraform those and build enough interstellar transports to move the food.

 

[mike3]

In fact, yes, since once you are a farmer territory means much more than it used to. It's not worth it, usually, as a hunter-gatherer, to fight over territory, since you can gather somewhere else and are nomadic anyway. But the territory where you planted your crops is a life and death issue for the farmer.

So then why so many early deaths from violence in the hunter-gatherer societies?

 

[phantomb]

So then why so many early deaths from violence in the hunter-gatherer societies?

I don't know the answer. Our great ape relatives kill each other all the time too, don't they?

 

[Belz...]

argument?....against what?....you said nothing.

I challenged you about your claim that "natural" medecine has any real use.

But I see you were challenged by something else...

 

[Skeptic]

I wasn't implying hunter-gatherers are peaceful (they're most emphatically not). All I meant was that war as we know it today -- struggle over territory -- dates from the neolithic agricultural revolution.

 

[Atwill]

the woods around my home are rich with medicinal herbs, barks and roots.
i have studied them and used them for 20 years.
i grow many more, and have a widely effective medicinal usage knowledge.
my ex, who lives across the farm, is a gifted and talented healer, of people and animals.

Going along with Virus' examples of epilepsy and diabetes, what kind of herbs, barks and roots would you prescribe to someone who suffers from those conditions? Antiepileptic medication in particular has only come around with the advances in medical science of the past two centuries, with *no* herbal alternatives available whatsoever, as far as I know.

 

[Varanid]

There was a question above about what level of medicine I would envision, and another comment about the industrialization needed for medicine (which I already agreed would be necessary at some level).

I don't know exactly where my line in the sand would be. The extremes are easy enough- bandages/opiates/disinfectants are definitely part of my vision, Botox, Cialis, and liposuction aren't.

I do realize some of them would require industrialization to produce (though not the bandages, opiates, and disinfectants). Does my utopia include factories to produce latex gloves and catheters? Probably. The point for me is trying to find a sensible balance.

Also, there are some bonafide natural medicinal substances. Can you cure cancer by eating some obscure weed in the forest? Probably not, but are there a variety of painkillers, diruetics, etc. found in natural products? Sure. Just because some people (mistakenly in my view) believe that all medical conditions can be cured by going outside and eating some leaves, does not mean that there aren't any without medicinal use.

There was another question about finding an appropriate amount of food, which I answered (more or less) already. I work in a local habitat, it is my job to teach people about it. I have crunched the numbers on the calories available per unit land based on the most likely food sources (which were used by historically native americans). Acorns, Blackberries, Grapes, Blueberries, Serviceberries, Onions, Dandelion (introduced, but naturalized), Hickory Nuts, Pawpaw fruit (which I admit looks disgusting), pokeweed, and on and on and on. This doesn't even get to the deer, fish, rabbits, squirrels, birds, reptiles, frogs, and so on and so on and so on. I mostly concentrated on the products of Caya, Quercus, and Pinus species as those are the most significant sources of food for local wildlife. I will see if I can find my number crunching.

 

[Belz...]

I don't know exactly where my line in the sand would be.

You seem to not know a lot when it comes to the subject being discussed. Perhaps you should give it some thought.