Primitivism Discussion

Although we don't have perfect knowledge, the research with the !Kung and other groups suggests that , based on these more contemporary hunter-gatherers, primitive humans only spent an average of about 20 hours a week gathering food.
Fair enough, but that would vary with the climate and the physical capabilities of the individuals.

A few times I spent time in a camp in winter. I had to ski in with my food strapped to a sled I pulled behind me, only to arrive at a cold building that required a fire to be built. Then I had to shovel a path to the bathroom. The calories burned alone made survival an all-day task.

To maintain a healthy weight I'd have to hike back out to get more food, lather, rinse, repeat. That's barring any of the real risks from happening--such as weather preventing me from finishing my hike, falling, wild animals, etc.

Once we skiied out to the nearest restaurant for lunch (a few miles away). I calculated we had lost more calories than we had gained, several times over in fact. And that's with the "luxury" of a restaurant lunch.

Presumably if I were to live there permanently, I would have to plant crops, hunt, and can my food. I would split enough wood in fall to keep me from freezing. So I guess it wouldn't be "that bad", but still, it sounds like a full time job to me, with the constant worry my efforts would fall short.
 
He directed you to the many posts where he had already addressed this.



That's not an evasion, that's a very clear answer.

Because he had already answered it in the thread, in just about every post he made.
He stated in the OP very clearly that he'd expand on his personal view. He did so before you entered the thread, in four separate posts, a quarter of the short thread up to that point, and he continued to do so.
No, he did not answer my question. He said to read any of his posts. I read 5 of them. As I said.

Between the two of you, I think you were far more obligated to read his posts than he was to repeat himself so you wouldn't have to.
I didn't start the thread.

This:


Is not a legitimate, respectful question in the context of what he had contributed to the thread. It is a snarky dismissal, completely ignoring everything he had said.

When you behave like as ass, you do not deserve to be answered seriously.
There is no insult in that question. Nor did I call him names when asking. You, on the other, just tried to. I don't suggest you take that tone with me.

Unsurprisingly, also, my simple question remained completely unanswered. This is a common tactic of people with irrational views, anything to distract from the actual logical question.
 
No, he did not answer my question. He said to read any of his posts. I read 5 of them. As I said.

I didn't start the thread.

There is no insult in that question. Nor did I call him names when asking. You, on the other, just tried to. I don't suggest you take that tone with me.

Unsurprisingly, also, my simple question remained completely unanswered. This is a common tactic of people with irrational views, anything to distract from the actual logical question.

What question haven't I answered? The "why don't you walk into the woods question?" I have answered it numerous times. Lack of medicine, social factors, and the lack of an actual woods to walk into, among others.

There is my answer (again). What is your point?
 
@EGarrett
Cavemonster has already addressed a large portion of the points I wanted to comment on, so I hope you don't mind if I only pick up on one thing.


Well, once again, no, they do not. To be honest, I'm a bit at a loss here, because I don't know how much clearer I could express this point: Hypocrisy is a character flaw that does *not* invalidate an idea.
I'm going to try to make my point clearer to you.

You are trying to discuss one part of the implications of someone not acting on a belief they claim to have but have not acted upon. The possibility that they are lying, which is hypocrisy. I'm discussing the entire range of possible causes that one may not act upon a belief that they claim to have and could easily act on, but don't. The entire spectrum of these explanations, when taken into account, are very relevant when discussing the logical validity of someone's worldview. And in fact, he was asked specifically to give further explanation of the logic behind his personal primitivism in order to investigate which of those explanations was the case.

I did not say that he was lying and that was the reason his worldview was invalid. It would be idiotic for someone to say that. I proposed far more possibilities, including that the worldview itself is irrational or deluded or not actually actionable. Which are relevant to its validity.

The rest of your post just continues down this mistaken tangent, so I will stop here.
 
I also would like to encourage any who advocate a primitive (by whatever definition) lifestyle, but do not agree with me in the need for basic medical services, hygiene, etc, to elaborate on your thoughts.

Perhaps I could be swayed this direction as well. As it stands, I can't endorse a lifestyle that is without these advancements.
 
Thanks to all for the discussion. I apologize for my delayed response, I spent the last two nights luring women to my modern apartment with hot water, flush toilets, and a hi-fi stereo to play dirty Nine Inch Nail songs on. But I only served them blackberries and almonds for breakfast, so...

Again, I have not been evading you for any reason. I sincerely apologize if that is what I have given you the impression I am doing so, but I wish you would stop insinuating that I am. I am not invested enough in a position to try to be evasive, quite the contrary I am open to being swayed by solid argument. Hence, this discussion. Is it really that rare for someone to start a thread without knowing exactly how they feel about an issue? If it is, it shouldn't be. I really don't want to bicker about it anymore.

Moving on- Here are my thoughts on the definition:

There are a number of concepts of primitivism. Some see it as a return to a pre-revolutionary lifestyle, others as a return to a pre-agricultural lifestyle. Personally, I see the pre-agricultural criteria to be more interesting for discussion.
...alright.

According to my (somewhat limited) knowledge of the subject, we have undergone a drastic paradigm shift in lifestyle without a corresponding morphological change. Our bodies evolved to live in a different manner than we currently do, eating different foods, living in different habitats, dealing with different stresses. (Note that this is a factual claim, not a subjective one- either lifestyle may be better than the other. Also, my claim could be shown to be incorrect).

I do not truly understand the thinking behind the pre-revolutionary concept, and would invite further discussion on the matter from those that do.

So, I guess primitivism for me would be defined as living the lifestyle of a H/G circa 10K BC (give or take).
...alright.

I do not think I could endorse adopting this lifestyle. (Which I am pretty sure I commented on, I believe I called myself a pseudo-primitivist or some such thing).
Okay, there you go again. You just assigned yourself some form of a primitivist viewpoint. What is your view? As a "pseudo-primitivist," what do you believe?

Some posters brought up the distinction between a primitivist and simply endorsing a more simple existence. I probably fit somewhere in this camp (simple lifestlye), though perhaps at the extreme fringes. Additionally, I have tried to draw distinctions between Anarcho-primitivism as typically discussed (which seems to eschew knowledge and science) and my view (whatever it turns out to be) that embraces knowledge and science.
So you "fit somewhere in the camp" of endorsing a simple lifestyle? Why? Can you make any non-vague statement?

I have mentioned medicine and basic hygiene as being things I believe have a place. I have also noted the paradox that some aspects of these require modernity. While soap, bandages, and basic first aid may not require modernity, a cat scan or epidural does require such.

So for the 45th time, I don't know exactly how I feel about the issue.
So you label yourself with terms, but you don't know what they actually mean and you won't attempt to explain it. Okay.

I think part of the problem is that you can't understand any reason for wanting to adopt a primitive lifestyle. That is fine, ga'bless and all that.
It's fairly obvious to me at this point that I understand the concept of primitivism far, far better than you do, since I can actually define terms I use and I actually grasp the logic and logical flaws behind the idea. Nonetheless, my existence has no effect on whether primitivism is a valid idea. It also is not the thing restraining you from answering a simple question, which you should be able to do regardless of the person asking.

I feel that some of the stresses would be preferable to some of the stresses in modern life. I would rather worry about feeding myself in my historic habitat (which I am confident could be done) than worrying about navigating the complexity of the modern world we live in.
Okay, well this is obviously as close as we're going to get to some manner of declarative statement about the value of primitivism as you see it. You feel that feeding yourself in a primitive society is somehow easier or less stressful than what you vaguely refer to as "navigating the complexity" of the world we live in.

First and foremost, are you aware that you are not forced to own a phone, a car, a house, or to be employed, and thus you are not required to participate in any of the complexities associated with them? These are optional things that the overwhelming majority of adults choose to do because of the benefits to their lifestyle. While on the other hand, in a primitive society, feeding yourself taxes your time, skill, physical and mental well-being and endurance, and is equivalent at the very least to a menial full-time job in the modern world, and is NON-OPTIONAL. This is of course, completely ignoring the need for shelter and avoidance of sickness and predators which is almost a total non-concern in our modern world?

Nonetheless, you feel the primitive option is still preferable? Please give some reason.
 
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Ok, we just aren't communicating. I will just disengage from the conversation with you now. I am sure you will think it is because you are somehow my intellectual superior.

Knock yourself out tiger.
 
Yay! Virus is here.
Come on man, I know you have better than that. Help me understand why it is such a stupid idea. We've all been talking like adults, but now that you are here you can set us straight. /good natured ribbing.

Snark aside, I am serious. I have no doubt you disagree, and probably have some intelligent points on the matter. Please elaborate.

It's already been done and dusted. In addition to digging a hole every time you want to take a crap, you now have to cull over five billion people that are only kept viable by the use of high-tech agriculture. Not to mention the millions of diabetics, epileptics, asthmatics who can lead normal lives due to an industrialized pharmaceutical production.

Stupid, stupid idea based on a fantasy.
 
It's already been done and dusted. In addition to digging a hole every time you want to take a crap, you now have to cull over five billion people that are only kept viable by the use of high-tech agriculture. Not to mention the millions of diabetics, epileptics, asthmatics who can lead normal lives due to an industrialized pharmaceutical production.

Stupid, stupid idea based on a fantasy.

We have discussed the population problem, and I have already come out in favor of medicine. Assuming these two were not issues, what else you got?
 
We have discussed the population problem, and I have already come out in favor of medicine. Assuming these two were not issues, what else you got?

Please explain how you're going to have medicines without industrialization, high-tech devices, high-level specialized education, research facilities, ect..
 
Please explain how you're going to have medicines without industrialization, high-tech devices, high-level specialized education, research facilities, ect..

the woods around my home are rich with medicinal herbs, barks and roots.
i have studied them and used them for 20 years.
i grow many more, and have a widely effective medicinal usage knowledge.
my ex, who lives across the farm, is a gifted and talented healer, of people and animals.
 
Are these "gurus" who advocate premature death a few random nutters or the norm?

From what I can tell, they are a few random nutters who are the norm. I am exagerrating but what I mean is that it is the leaders of the ecological movement of the 1960s and 70s -- Paul Ehrlich, for example, or Charles Reich (I can name many other names, and give many relevant quotes, if you're interested) -- consider themselves, whatever method they prefer, to be part of the reigning elite of the world who should tell everybody else how to act.

Their real goal, as Richard Neuhaus pointed out in In Defense of People, is the fantasy of having a 'clean' world of people like us, without all those billions of annoying riff-raff from the third world, whether by starving the riff-raff to death or by gradually breeding them out. The reason why primitivists never consider the 95%+ of humanity that would have to be slaves and servants is that the whole point of the primitivist fantasy is to imagine a world cleansed of such inferior creatures.

Let us take population control. True, this nutter -- who says "Saving a starving child today means having more children in thirty years time trying to live off the same or eroded resources" -- is an exception. Naturally he isn't thinking of children of people like themselves: they also say that "If you think not having children yourself is the answer PLEASE THINK AGAIN. For the smart people to leave breeding to the stupid, the brainwashed, the ignorant and the indoctrinated would be an even worse disaster." It's only other people's children, the children of people not like them, that should starve.

But is Ehrlich's view that different? In some respects yes, but in many respects no. E.g., he thinks voluntary birth control is good enough for the likes of him -- people in the comfortable, educated west, who surely can be trusted to be responsible about their reproduction. But for "extreme cases of over-population" -- that is, in the third world -- Ehrlich advocated "compulsory birth regulation ... (through) the addition of temporary sterilants to water supplies or staple food. Doses of the antidote would be carefully rationed by the government to produce the desired family size". They, the masses, cannot be trusted. Their reproduction must be controled by people like us, who should govern them. Freedom is for the likes of Ehrlich; coersion is for the rest of us slobs.

(Oh, and what if you're -- say -- a farmer who will now suffer hardship and even starvation because you have no heirs due to Ehrlich's forced steralization? Well, that's just your bad luck to be born in a poor, populated country, you see.)

The difference between Ehrlich and the nutter is in the details: how much coersion, whether the coersion should be relatively benevolent or heartlessly malevolent. Neither contests the basic fact that people just like them should enjoy special priviledges, and it's the other 95% of the world not like them that should be coerced to do as they're told. And they share just this fantasy with many primitivists, as Neuhaus points out.
 
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I feel that some of the stresses would be preferable to some of the stresses in modern life. I would rather worry about feeding myself in my historic habitat (which I am confident could be done) than worrying about navigating the complexity of the modern world we live in.

What's so stressful about the world we live in ?
 
the woods around my home are rich with medicinal herbs, barks and roots.
i have studied them and used them for 20 years.

Yeah. Sure.

No, there's a reason why we switched to REAL medecine. Natural products my eye.

my ex, who lives across the farm, is a gifted and talented healer, of people and animals.

Can she summon fairies and dragons, too ?
 
(Oh, and what if you're -- say -- a farmer who will now suffer hardship and even starvation because you have no heirs due to Ehrlich's forced steralization? Well, that's just your bad luck to be born in a poor, populated country, you see.)

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