Carrot Flower King
Janitor of Lunacy
Just to emphasise this one.
The sort of "debunking" needed here is more along the lines of CBT...Other treatment modalities are available.
Pope Prophecy - need help debunking
- Thread starter Confusion
- Start date
Just to emphasise this one.
The sort of "debunking" needed here is more along the lines of CBT...Other treatment modalities are available.
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2006
- Messages
- 22,093
It's already been pointed out that the claimed papal motto is a fabrication, and that solar eclipses are actually quite common. The chances of someone being born, and having their funeral coincide with a solar eclipse somewhere on earth is unusual, certainly, but hardly so astonishing as to warrant entertaining a supernatural explanation. You appear to be attempting to rationalize a reason to believe a superstitious claim rather than attempting to refute it. And this is your second "I'm a skeptic but I'm having a hard time dismissing a poorly evidenced supernatural claim and I'm really frightened" thread.
One more for, i've never heard of these before.
That being said, seeing as they appear to accurate up to shortly before being published and not so much afterward, I don't think you need to worry to much about them.
The anxiety seems unwarranted, I don't think you are going to get much help here. That you put any stock in these prophecies seems somewhat irrational. Again, accurate regarding things that happened prior to publication but not so much after 1590, just sounds like a hoax.
That being said, seeing as they appear to accurate up to shortly before being published and not so much afterward, I don't think you need to worry to much about them.
The anxiety seems unwarranted, I don't think you are going to get much help here. That you put any stock in these prophecies seems somewhat irrational. Again, accurate regarding things that happened prior to publication but not so much after 1590, just sounds like a hoax.
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The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
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The problem is that when we present you with a reason to question the thing, and you find a reason to disregard our contrary evidence, the net effect is that you have convinced yourself more firmly than before.
It's a common psychological effect that unless by chance we find the one argument to convince you, all we do is to make the situation worse.
A CBT approach to lower your resistance to new information might indeed be required.
Well I'll dare to go the other way.
Sounds to me like you want to be told what to think and do.
So maybe you should "give in". Just join a darn church and do what they say you need to do the avoid going to hell, which you've written you are afraid of.
Give it a year. If it makes you happier, that's fine. Why not?
(To be clear: I think all religions and prophecies are a bucket of overripe bananas. There's no God/s, devil/s, Valhalla, paradise, heaven or hell. And your concerns, as explained in this thread, are baseless.
But religion does give comfort to some people, why not you?)
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
It's already been pointed out, erroneously. People are misunderstanding the word "motto" in this context.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
No, you're asking us to dance to the tune of each new excuse for anxiety you introduce. Talk to a professional about ways to actually treat your condition.
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
- Joined
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I guess I was just confused by the reference to the "motto of John Paul II" having been "de labore solis" and all the sources stating that his personal motto was actually "Totus tuus".
Me too. Why Confusion threw in the word 'motto' is a bit of a mystery.
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
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- Oct 14, 2009
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We can tell you that the stuff you get anxious about is nothing to get anxious about. But that's not the help you need. You need proper professional help with your problem of getting anxious about stuff that's nothing to get anxious about.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
It's jargon. It's the term used by those who study the prophecies, to refer to the prophetic clauses applying to the Popes. Confusion threw it in because that's the right word to use in this context.
Took me about 30 seconds on Google to figure it out.
I Am The Scum
Philosopher
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2010
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- 5,787
Well, sure, but what about the prophecy of the defecating bear?
junkshop
Otto's Favourite
No, you're not. You may not post very often, but you've been a member for three years.
Agreed, assuming honesty.
I find this hard to believe. As with your previous (and functionally identiical) thread, you are asking for help to debunk a superstition, then rejecting the help offered due to extra details that were not included in the original appeal.
I suspect tbat you are fishing for skeptical arguments in order to better contest them in some other forum*.
I may, of course, be wrong. If I am, then I apologise, and would urge you (as others have) to raise these issues with a professional, rather than a bunch of internet randos.
Also, if my suspicions are indeed wrong, then I would suggest you should stop reading claims of prophecies and such. If the merest suggestion of the supernatural spooks you so, then just avoid it for now.
After all, you have access to a pretty damn good archive of arguments both for and (more often) against belief in the supernatural. Indeed, you have had for three years. Settle into a comfy chair with your beverage of choice, and scroll through a few threads.
*used in the traditional sense, not necessarily being an internet argument site, like this one here wot we dwell in, like the morlocks we do be.
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arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
To be fair, anxiety can be a hell of a drug. Good for you, Confusion, for coming to a place where people are well-equipped to address your fears rationally. You can't reason your way out of a situation that serotonin and norepenephrin didn't reason your way into, but you should still be able to look at why your brain is wrong to make you so anxious.
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
You have to remember that religious dogmas were made to prey on people's fears and anxieties, and they often work as intended.
I remember a period when I was a youth when I was actually fearful of going to hell, and not yet fully confident in my own rejection of religion. Now that I'm older I feel like I've seen behind the curtain and it all makes sense to me as a social phenomenon.
I wonder if Confusion also has any anxiety that the Muslims might be right, or the Jews, or the Mormons? Is it only the Catholic dogma that causes such anxiety? Presumably as a sequelae of having been raised Catholic?
Part of the process for me personally was realizing just how many different religions there are, and how the true believers of each of them are equally convinced. And yet they have incompatible beliefs.
I'm willing to assume that Confusion is being truthful until I see evidence to the contrary.
The stories of heaven and hell are psychological tools of organized religions intended to keep the faithful under control.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
He needs professional help, not amateur chew toy enjoyers.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
He's getting it.
Meanwhile, we can do what we can to explain things cooly and rationally so that his anxiety-focused brain has something to grab on to.
I am being genuine, and I genuinely forgot I'd posted on this forum before with a similar problem so im sorry. I can't explain why my brain focuses on these things. But when it does, I get intense feelings of dread and fear, and I'm unable to tell myself why I shouldn't believe these things. Believe me, I'm trying to tell my brain that this whole thing is a made up pile of junk, but no matter all of the advice and comments everyone has contributed (and believe me, I thank you), I'm unable to convince myself that I can accept certain things as being chance. This scares me, as the only alternative is that there's something to all of this stuff, and I do not want there to be. I want to enjoy my life believing the world is scientific, rational and devoid of magic.
I'll state what's going through my head right now as clearly as I can.
What I'm struggling with right now, is that even though the direct translation of the phrase within the prophecy for JP II, 'De Labore Solis' is 'The work of the sun', it was put out there by O'Brien in his text in 1880 (even though he doesn't believe these prophecies, but to my brain thats irrelevant), that it's probably to be taken more coloquially as 'Eclipse of the Sun'.
Whether thats a true coloquialism (is that a word?) or not, the fact that he put the notion of it referring to an eclipse 100 years before it matches up with JP II, who as far as we know is the ONLY pope to have ever been born on the day of any kind of eclipse.
I've actually taken the popes birthdays as far back as the 13th century and matches them with eclipse data. No other dates match. Obviously there's a whole lot more to go yet.
Why my brain does this to me, I don't know. I don't believe in this stuff. I don't believe in god/the bible. I'm seeking help and believe me I want it.
I'll state what's going through my head right now as clearly as I can.
What I'm struggling with right now, is that even though the direct translation of the phrase within the prophecy for JP II, 'De Labore Solis' is 'The work of the sun', it was put out there by O'Brien in his text in 1880 (even though he doesn't believe these prophecies, but to my brain thats irrelevant), that it's probably to be taken more coloquially as 'Eclipse of the Sun'.
Whether thats a true coloquialism (is that a word?) or not, the fact that he put the notion of it referring to an eclipse 100 years before it matches up with JP II, who as far as we know is the ONLY pope to have ever been born on the day of any kind of eclipse.
I've actually taken the popes birthdays as far back as the 13th century and matches them with eclipse data. No other dates match. Obviously there's a whole lot more to go yet.
Why my brain does this to me, I don't know. I don't believe in this stuff. I don't believe in god/the bible. I'm seeking help and believe me I want it.
Gulliver Foyle
Philosopher
I have, my mother brings it up a lot. It's a very vaguely worded, think Nostradamus, prophesy which, like most prophesies, can be mapped onto any series of events.