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Pope Prophecy - need help debunking

Googling "labor solis" yields no hits other than a solar energy company, which is a much more literal translation. So we have a prophecy that doesn't mention an eclipse, misinterpreted by someone who doesn't believe it, that happens to correlate with the fact that a Pope was born 100 years later during an eclipse. Once you start admitting multiple degrees of separation like that, it's almost impossible for any sufficiently vague prophecy not to have some connection.

Dave
 
Thank you everyone. I'm so sorry for angering any of you.

I just need to convince myself that christianity isn't real and im not going to go to hell.
 
Confusion said:
Sure. He says "Why is this legend translated as "of the labour of the sun"? Labor solis is a classic phrase meaning an eclipse."
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And does he anywhere support this claim with evidence? With original texts from the time period in question, demonstrating this usage? Establishing this usage as commonplace in such contexts?
 
GlennB said:
That wasn't even his motto -

"Totus Tuus
Pope John Paul II had intense devotion to Mary the Mother of God. He had the Latin motto “Totus Tuus” engraved into his coat of arms which was the short form for the translation; I am all yours, and all I have is yours"

This is confirmed by multiple sites.
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The term "motto" in this context refers to the prophetic phrase associated with the Pope in question, in the prophesy itself.
 
Dave Rogers said:
... that happens to correlate with the fact that a Pope was born 100 years later during an eclipse.
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Not "during" so far as we know, and not "an eclipse", only a partial one. Born on the same day that a partial eclipse happened in a different part of the world.

It appears there are typically 2-5 partial solar eclipses in any year. That gives you very roughly a 1% chance of being born on the same day as a partial eclipse happens somewhere. With 260+ popes to choose from there ought to be more than one just by chance.

Does anyone happen to know what proportion of popes have known dates of birth?
 
I found this here : https://catholicsouthernfront.wordpress.com/st-malachy-papal-list/

The prophetic motto corresponding to Pope John Paul II is “De labore solis”, which literally means “Of the labor (work/giving birth) of the sun”; but “labor solis” is a common Latin expression that means a solar eclipse.

There are a variety of explanations that have been given to explain the motto:

Karol Jozef Wojtyła, who later became Pope John Paul II, was born on 18 May 1920, the day of a partial solar eclipse over the Indian Ocean, and buried on 8 April 2005, the day of a rare hybrid eclipse over the south-western Pacific and South America.
During World War II, Karol Wojtyła worked in a quarry, “laboring in the sunlight”.
It might also be seen to be the fruit of the intercession of the “Woman Clothed with the Sun labouring” in the Book of Revelation 12, because of his devotion to the Virgin Mary, to whose intercession he credited surviving an assassination attempt early in his papacy.
Also, he affirmed the importance of the reported messages of the Virgin Mary at Fatima, which had as its confirming event, the strange “solar miracle” or “sun spinning in the sky” event, reported in the secular media in 1917.
It has also been suggested that the associated Latin phrase could also be an anagram for “de borealis sol” (correct Latin: de boreali sol) or “a Sun from the North”, being a luminary coming from Poland which is north of Rome.
Another interpretation points simply to the sun rising in the east and his being the first Pope from Eastern Europe.
A further theory is that the combination of “labore” and “solis” cryptically refers to “the sun of the workers”, i.e., “the star of communism”, with John Paul being the only pope to have spent much of his life under a communist regime.
Said Pope rose in history together – and probably had special relationship with – the Gdansk “Solidarity” workers union. The logo of this union is the circle of the sun and some lines which represent its rays, plus the word “SOL” which is the beginning of the Polish Union name “Solidarity”.
Yet another theory exists among some traditionalist Catholics, who believe that the motto translates as “Eclipse of the Sun”. These Catholics view the Second Vatican Council as a fundamental departure of the Catholic faith. and that the differences between the church before and after the council are stark enough to regard the contemporary official Catholic Church as a new modernist church and not truly Catholic. The sun is so interpreted as the true Catholic faith, which has been eclipsed by the heterodoxy of the council teachings. They identify this time period as the Great Apostasy, that has been predicted for the End of Times.
John Paul II introduced the Luminous Mysteries to the Rosary.
During his pontificate, John Paul II traveled extensively all around the world, more than any other pope before, and similarly to what the sun does daily, from an earth-centric point of view.[67]

Also, I've looked into all the known birth dates of the popes, here : https://catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop//spope3.html

I've correlated these with dates of eclipses throughout the centuries but so far no hits. Only JP II. I've made it as far down as 13th C.
 
Confusion said:
Thank you everyone. I'm so sorry for angering any of you.

I just need to convince myself that christianity isn't real and im not going to go to hell.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is angry. At worst a little exasperated that you seem so alarmed by stuff that barely reaches the threshold of interesting coincidence.

If you have a problem, it's not that magic might be real. It's that you seem to have an irrationally low threshold for worrying that it might be. Magic has a 100% track record of turning out to be just pretend. It's a very, very long way down the list of stuff anyone has to worry about.
 
This prophecy is a version of the Lincoln-Kennedy Coincidence fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln–Kennedy_coincidences_urban_legend

"Lincoln" and "Kennedy" each have seven letters.[5]
Both presidents were elected to Congress in '46 and later to the presidency in '60.[5]
Both assassins, John Wilkes Booth and Lee Harvey Oswald, were born in '39 and were known by their three names, composed of fifteen letters.[5]
Booth ran from a theater and was caught in a warehouse; Oswald ran from a warehouse and was caught in a theater.[5]
The assassins were both Southerners.[5]
Both of the presidents' successors were named Johnson and born in '08.[5]
Both Lincoln and Kennedy were particularly concerned with civil rights[5] and made their views strongly known.
Both presidents were shot in the head on a Friday.[5]
Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy who told him not to go to Ford's Theatre. Kennedy had a secretary named Evelyn Lincoln and she warned him not to go to Dallas.[5]
Both Oswald and Booth were killed before they could be put on trial.[5]
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not all correct, but even if - so what?
 
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Confusion said:
Basic research?
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Try reading something like Alex Reinhart's Statistics Done Wrong or Trisha Greenhalgh's How To Read A Paper (this was written for medical students but remains a good guide to reading and understanding scientific papers and what lies behind them).

Other books on basic stats are available.

The track down a copy of something like John Sladek's New Apocrypha, which lays the boot into many "predictions" and other such nonsense (the section about Nostradamus "predicting" the winners of a golf major is a hoot).

That rendering of "de labore solis" sounds like a post hoc rationalisation from someone. Any reliable sources for that ever meaning an eclipse, as my Latin says something different.
 
Confusion said:
But I can't get my head around this motto for JP II.
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Why not? Solar eclipses are much more common than most people think, occurring two to five times a year. The eclipses associated with John Paul II's birth and funeral happened nowhere near either event. It's easy to retrofit a motto to an event that happened decades earlier, as in the eclipse that coincided with his birth. There's nothing prophetic about that at all.

More significantly, "de labore solis" wasn't even John Paul II's motto. It was "totus tuus", which translates as "totally yours".

The "eclipse narrative" is nothing more than believers mysticizing something that was, in reality, nothing more than a moderately interesting coincidence. Someone even made up a false papal motto to make it seem even more mystical.
 
Confusion said:
There are a variety of explanations that have been given to explain the motto:
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The fact that you've been able to find a number of rationalisations that runs into double figures actually weakens the case for a prophecy, rather than strengthens it. What it means is that this phrase is so vague that it's possible to come up with multiple reasons why it applies to literally anyone. For a start, it applies to anyone born in daytime, because their mother was in labour when the sun was up. It then applies, as you've noted, to anyone who's ever had a job that involved working outdoors. It applies to anyone who's been involved with any organisation that has the sun as a motif in its emblem, which is not exactly uncommon. It applies, if you're going to use the rising sun as a metaphor for the East (which the phrase clearly does not, by the way), to anybody born to the east of any arbitrary region you want to choose. And it applies to anyone whose views don't exactly concur with those of some other arbitrarily chosen group of people, because the religious love their schisms.

My challenge to you is to find any single individual, anywhere or at any time in history, to whom not a single one of these associations is applicable.

Dave
 
Confusion said:
I found this here : https://catholicsouthernfront.wordpress.com/st-malachy-papal-list/

The prophetic motto corresponding to Pope John Paul II is “De labore solis”, which literally means “Of the labor (work/giving birth) of the sun”; but “labor solis” is a common Latin expression that means a solar eclipse.
Click to expand...

The metaphor of an eclipse giving birth to the sun might make sense if "labor" actually meant the same things in Latin that it means in English. But no, giving birth in Latin is a totally different, unrelated word.

I just need to convince myself that christianity isn't real and im not going to go to hell.
Click to expand...
Do you? It doesn't seem like it. It seems like you've tried nothing and you're all out of ideas.

It seems like you need to convince yourself that Christianity is something you should be afraid of.

It seems like you need to make sure we know you're wallowing in this irrational fear.

That's what it seems like.
 
Yes I am wallowing in this fear. I'm trying to rationalise with it, but I'm posting all the info I can find in hopes you guys can help. I'm really scared.
 
Confusion said:
I found this here : https://catholicsouthernfront.wordpress.com/st-malachy-papal-list/

The prophetic motto corresponding to Pope John Paul II is “De labore solis”, which literally means “Of the labor (work/giving birth) of the sun”; but “labor solis” is a common Latin expression that means a solar eclipse.

There are a variety of explanations that have been given to explain the motto:

Karol Jozef Wojtyła, who later became Pope John Paul II, was born on 18 May 1920, the day of a partial solar eclipse over the Indian Ocean, and buried on 8 April 2005, the day of a rare hybrid eclipse over the south-western Pacific and South America.
During World War II, Karol Wojtyła worked in a quarry, “laboring in the sunlight”.
It might also be seen to be the fruit of the intercession of the “Woman Clothed with the Sun labouring” in the Book of Revelation 12, because of his devotion to the Virgin Mary, to whose intercession he credited surviving an assassination attempt early in his papacy.
Also, he affirmed the importance of the reported messages of the Virgin Mary at Fatima, which had as its confirming event, the strange “solar miracle” or “sun spinning in the sky” event, reported in the secular media in 1917.
It has also been suggested that the associated Latin phrase could also be an anagram for “de borealis sol” (correct Latin: de boreali sol) or “a Sun from the North”, being a luminary coming from Poland which is north of Rome.
Another interpretation points simply to the sun rising in the east and his being the first Pope from Eastern Europe.
A further theory is that the combination of “labore” and “solis” cryptically refers to “the sun of the workers”, i.e., “the star of communism”, with John Paul being the only pope to have spent much of his life under a communist regime.
Said Pope rose in history together – and probably had special relationship with – the Gdansk “Solidarity” workers union. The logo of this union is the circle of the sun and some lines which represent its rays, plus the word “SOL” which is the beginning of the Polish Union name “Solidarity”.
Yet another theory exists among some traditionalist Catholics, who believe that the motto translates as “Eclipse of the Sun”. These Catholics view the Second Vatican Council as a fundamental departure of the Catholic faith. and that the differences between the church before and after the council are stark enough to regard the contemporary official Catholic Church as a new modernist church and not truly Catholic. The sun is so interpreted as the true Catholic faith, which has been eclipsed by the heterodoxy of the council teachings. They identify this time period as the Great Apostasy, that has been predicted for the End of Times.
John Paul II introduced the Luminous Mysteries to the Rosary.
During his pontificate, John Paul II traveled extensively all around the world, more than any other pope before, and similarly to what the sun does daily, from an earth-centric point of view.[67]

Also, I've looked into all the known birth dates of the popes, here : https://catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop//spope3.html

I've correlated these with dates of eclipses throughout the centuries but so far no hits. Only JP II. I've made it as far down as 13th C.
Click to expand...

Where to even start?
 
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