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Pope Prophecy - need help debunking

MRC_Hans said:
Just for fun, I asked ChatGPT to make a list of predictions for a few years in the future. Mind you that these are not really random predictions, rather a sort of educated guesses.
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Most of those appear to be simple extrapolations of existing trends. Most are also vague enough that they would be difficult to falsify.

E.g., "Climate change initiatives gain momentum, with increased global efforts to combat environmental issues, reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and promote sustainable practices."

The initiatives will "gain momentum" and the "efforts" will increase. But global CO2 emissions will continue to increase anyway for the foreseeable future. The concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere will also continue to increase linearly along the trend line that it has been following for the past several decades.
 
I'm also scared by the motto for Pope JP II - 'de labore solis' which translates to 'from the eclipse of the sun.'

He was born during a partial eclipse, though on the other side of the world, and his funeral took place during an eclipse also. The only pope to ever have been born during an eclipse.
 
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Confusion said:
I'm also scared by the motto for Pope JP II - 'de labore solis' which translates to 'from the eclipse of the sun.'

He was born during a partial eclipse, though on the other side of the world, and his funeral took place during an eclipse also. The only pope to ever have been born during an eclipse.
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"Labore" means labor/work, not Eclipse.

And humans have known for millennia how to predict an Eclipse.
Also, unless his mother was in a real hurry, he wasn't born during an Eclipse, but maybe close to the time of one.
 
Puppycow said:
Most of those appear to be simple extrapolations of existing trends. Most are also vague enough that they would be difficult to falsify.

E.g., "Climate change initiatives gain momentum, with increased global efforts to combat environmental issues, reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and promote sustainable practices."

The initiatives will "gain momentum" and the "efforts" will increase. But global CO2 emissions will continue to increase anyway for the foreseeable future. The concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere will also continue to increase linearly along the trend line that it has been following for the past several decades.
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Yes, that was sort of my point: Even qualified guesses, based on extensive data collection (as is how ChatGPT works) will yield ambiguous predictions, with possibility for post-hoc interpretation.

Hans
 
Confusion said:
I'm also scared by the motto for Pope JP II - 'de labore solis' which translates to 'from the eclipse of the sun.'

He was born during a partial eclipse, though on the other side of the world, and his funeral took place during an eclipse also. The only pope to ever have been born during an eclipse.
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What on Earth is scary about that? IF he was born during an eclipse, he would know it and might adapt his motto to reflect that fact.

However, as TGZ notes, "de labore solis" does not mean solar eclipse, it means "in the work of the sun".

Hans :rolleyes:
 
MRC_Hans said:
What on Earth is scary about that? IF he was born during an eclipse, he would know it and might adapt his motto to reflect that fact.

However, as TGZ notes, "de labore solis" does not mean solar eclipse, it means "in the work of the sun".

Hans : rolleyes :
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"Motto" here is jargon. It's the prophetic phrase associated with the pope, in the source text.
 
MRC_Hans said:
What on Earth is scary about that? IF he was born during an eclipse, he would know it and might adapt his motto to reflect that fact.

However, as TGZ notes, "de labore solis" does not mean solar eclipse, it means "in the work of the sun".

Hans :rolleyes:
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M.J O'Brien wrote a critical account of the prophecies in 1880 which I've read. He describes the phrase as a coloquial term for an eclipse. This is the text:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show...-account-of-the-so-called-prophecy-of-st-mala

I'm finding it hard to rationalise how the author could by chance, hit the only pope born on the day of an eclipse, with a reference to an eclipse.
 
Confusion said:
I'm also scared by the motto for Pope JP II - 'de labore solis' which translates to 'from the eclipse of the sun.'
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No it doesn't. The word Eclipse is derived from the ancient Greek word ἔκλειψις (ékleipsis), meaning "abandonment", which entered Latin as 'eclipsis.' It doesn't even have a meaning remotely close to 'labore.' This looks like someone's simply made up an association after the fact that never existed.

Dave
 
Sorry, I'm not being clear. Although the phrase 'de labore solis' doesn't directly translate as 'eclipse of the sun', It was mentioned as meaning such coloquially by MJ O Brien, who wrote a critical account of these prophecies in 1880.

Obviously this is approx. 100 years before JP II. So even though the translation is not exact, it was taken to be a reference to an eclipse 100 years before the relevant pope. It scares me that JP II is the only pope to be born on the day of an eclipse, regardless of where the eclipse was visible from.

I don't know where to turn to for help. It's like if any of this is somehow true, it confirms the catholic world view and that terrifies me.
 
Confusion said:
Sorry, I'm not being clear. Although the phrase 'de labore solis' doesn't directly translate as 'eclipse of the sun', It was mentioned as meaning such coloquially by MJ O Brien, who wrote a critical account of these prophecies in 1880.

Obviously this is approx. 100 years before JP II. So even though the translation is not exact, it was taken to be a reference to an eclipse 100 years before the relevant pope. It scares me that JP II is the only pope to be born on the day of an eclipse, regardless of where the eclipse was visible from.

I don't know where to turn to for help. It's like if any of this is somehow true, it confirms the catholic world view and that terrifies me.
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where are you getting your data from?
That seems to be the biggest problem here - it's clearly very cherry-picked to make out patterns that don't exist.

You claim that no Pope was born during an eclipse, but have you put all their birthdays into the eclipse tracker and checked?
Nevermind that for most Popes we wouldn't have an exact enough time/date of birth to make that claim.
 
The book is called A Critical Account of the So called Prophecy of St Malachy, by MJ O Brien. First published in 1880. I think you would have to buy it. I have it on google books. O Brien is a catholic priest but he's critical of the prophecies himself and doesn't think they're real, largely based on them plagiarising Onophrio Panvinio's History of the Popes for the 'historical' prophecies, and replicating the errors within that text.

But I can't get my head around this motto for JP II.
 
Confusion said:
M.J O'Brien wrote a critical account of the prophecies in 1880 which I've read. He describes the phrase as a coloquial term for an eclipse. This is the text:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show...-account-of-the-so-called-prophecy-of-st-mala

I'm finding it hard to rationalise how the author could by chance, hit the only pope born on the day of an eclipse, with a reference to an eclipse.
Click to expand...

Confusion said:
Sorry, I'm not being clear. Although the phrase 'de labore solis' doesn't directly translate as 'eclipse of the sun', It was mentioned as meaning such coloquially by MJ O Brien, who wrote a critical account of these prophecies in 1880.

Obviously this is approx. 100 years before JP II. So even though the translation is not exact, it was taken to be a reference to an eclipse 100 years before the relevant pope. It scares me that JP II is the only pope to be born on the day of an eclipse, regardless of where the eclipse was visible from.

I don't know where to turn to for help. It's like if any of this is somehow true, it confirms the catholic world view and that terrifies me.
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Turn to a psychologist for help.
 
Confusion, you are working extremely hard to make something fit that just doesn't.

if you studied any Statistics, you would realize that what you think are unlikely coincidences are extremely probable patterns.
Especially if we have such an extremely tightly defined group as people who could become Pope.

It's like you had to make a prediction what vague references would fit a Fighter Pilot - you would most likely make a better job of it than this "Prophecy" did for Popes.
 
Confusion said:
Sorry, I'm not being clear. Although the phrase 'de labore solis' doesn't directly translate as 'eclipse of the sun', It was mentioned as meaning such coloquially by MJ O Brien, who wrote a critical account of these prophecies in 1880.
Click to expand...

So the prophecy itself doesn't prophesy JPII, but a mistranslation of it by someone who thinks the prophecy is bunk can be interpreted to prophesy him in some way? By no stretch of the imagination can that be taken as a successful prophecy; it's just a slightly surprising correlation between largely unrelated events, of the type that can be found literally anywhere by anyone interested in looking for it.

Just out of curiosity, could you type out the exact words in which O'Brien claims that 'de labore solis' means an eclipse? I suspect even that association may be more vague than you think.

Dave
 
Sure. He says "Why is this legend translated as "of the labour of the sun"? Labor solis is a classic phrase meaning an eclipse."
 
That wasn't even his motto -

"Totus Tuus
Pope John Paul II had intense devotion to Mary the Mother of God. He had the Latin motto “Totus Tuus” engraved into his coat of arms which was the short form for the translation; I am all yours, and all I have is yours"

This is confirmed by multiple sites.
 
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