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Pope Prophecy - need help debunking

Confusion said:
I'm sure you've all heard of St Malachy's Popes Prophecy.
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Another vote here for literally never heard of it until now.
catsmate said:
It's a pretty obvious fake, for the reasons given. Specifically it has no historical record prior to c.1590 when Wion "discovered", when it was very convenient for the Papal conclave, none of Malachy's contemporaries referenced the purported "prophecies".

A little textual examination shows the "prophecies" are mainly plagarised from Panvinio, including several mistakes from his History of the Popes.
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Well, that looks like a fairly straightforward case of nothing to see here. Which makes me wonder at the OP's distress, despite their having done a good deal of reading on the topic.

I wonder if it might help to take a break and read some stuff about, say, the phenomenon of cold reading instead.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Another vote here for literally never heard of it until now.


Well, that looks like a fairly straightforward case of nothing to see here. Which makes me wonder at the OP's distress, despite their having done a good deal of reading on the topic.

I wonder if it might help to take a break and read some stuff about, say, the phenomenon of cold reading instead.
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It was mainly the one entry for Pope Gregory XVI that had me concerned. Again, this is just my anxiety. Anything that challenges my rationalistic worldview can trigger me, and I was having trouble rationalising this particular motto.
 
Confusion said:
It was mainly the one entry for Pope Gregory XVI that had me concerned. Again, this is just my anxiety. Anything that challenges my rationalistic worldview can trigger me, and I was having trouble rationalising this particular motto.
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What are your thoughts on Climate Change?

Income and Wealth Inequality?
 
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The Great Zaganza said:
What are your thoughts on Climate Change?
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See, anxiety is a weird thing. Again, I'm a lifelong atheist and skeptic. I've never held any supernatural beliefs at all, yet things like this freak me out.

Climate Change is obviously very real, its anthropogenic, and it worries me. But it's not an anxiety trigger for me because it falls within the realms of reality. It's not supernatural in any way.
 
Confusion said:
See, anxiety is a weird thing. Again, I'm a lifelong atheist and skeptic. I've never held any supernatural beliefs at all, yet things like this freak me out.

Climate Change is obviously very real, its anthropogenic, and it worries me. But it's not an anxiety trigger for me because it falls within the realms of reality. It's not supernatural in any way.
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I see.

given that you are worried about this text suggesting that The End is near

(even thought the current Pope can not possibly be the one from the text (because no 16th century prophet could imagine someone from South America becoming Pope))

what shape do you think The End will take?
If the Supernatural is on the table, are you thinking Horse-Locusts?
 
Haha possibly.

I don't know. I just freak out. My amygdala starts screaming "if you can't rationalise this, this is proof that the christians are right. The world is a crazy, irrational magic realm, heaven and hell are real and my family and I are going to suffer forever."
 
There is a Podcast I like, in which a historical Bible Scholar goes through passages, compares the different versions available, puts them in historical context etc.
it's called Data over Dogma - maybe there is something for you in there.

if you start studying the subject as a whole, instead of focusing on a single text, you will see that Prophecies are a dime a dozen, and they usually have a clear political goal for the time they are written.
They are never, NEVER, about the far future, because no one ever cares about the far future.
 
Maybe I misunderstood.

I thought you were getting obsessed by the idea this 16th century fake prophecy had influenced the 19th century conclave that elected Gregory.

But it appears to be more that you feel if it can't be proved that happened then the only other possible explanation is that the prophecy was genuine (and that somehow also everything about the Catholic faith being literally true follows as a corollary).

That doesn't seem particularly rational, though I appreciate we don't get to choose what our brains decide to fixate on. Without having seen the wording of the prophecy, my initial assumption is that its description of Gregory's origin will be good enough to seem recognisable but I would be surprised indeed if it was so startlingly accurate that that it swept away all doubt about its other failures and convinced a disbelieving person the world was actually magical.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
But it appears to be more that you feel if it can't be proved that happened then the only other possible explanation is that the prophecy was genuine (and that somehow also everything about the Catholic faith being literally true follows as a corollary).
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Yes exactly. I've been trying to rationalise the coincidence. However, a few posts on this thread have actually helped me by pointing out that the prophecy doesn't exactly fit to the facts regarding that particular pope anyway, which has helped.
 
I rather like the sound of the podcast The Great Zaganza recommended. That may put the prophecy game into a healthier perspective.
 
Confusion, if you are so anxious about such things, why do you read about them? There is an ocean of silly predictions out there, and as some here already pointed out, some of them will happen to be (more or less) right.

Just ignore it all and stick to reality.

Hans
 
Confusion said:
I'm also kind of hoping that these prophecies maybe had some influence on who was elected? Do you think thats a possibility?
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Why should this matter to any of us (the majority) who are not and never have been Roman Catholics?

Who they elect and whatever political or other machinations go into it are a matter of indifference to any non-Catholic.

Last time I checked the world was "prophesied" by someone or other to have ended several hundred times in my lifetime.

We're still here.

I'm more concerned about the Yellowstone super-volcano going up than I am about anything to do with a Pope. And I'm not concerned about that even though it pretty much will happen at some point.

On another note: if your anxiety state is so debilitating, oplease seek some appropriate professional help.
 
The Prophecy of the Popes has about the same level of credibility as the prophecies of Michel de Nostredame (a.k.a. Nostradamus) and at least he has the aspect that his works were provably contemporaneous with him in the 16th century (the problem with his prophecies being that their interpretations are all post-facto of known events).
 
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Just for fun, I asked ChatGPT to make a list of predictions for a few years in the future. Mind you that these are not really random predictions, rather a sort of educated guesses.

Please make a list of random predictions pertaining to the near future (a couple of years from 2023)

ChatGPT
Certainly! Please keep in mind that these predictions are speculative and not guaranteed to come true. Here's a list of random predictions for the near future (a couple of years from 2023):

Self-driving cars become more prevalent, with major cities implementing autonomous vehicle lanes and regulations to accommodate the technology.

Virtual reality (VR) and augmented reality (AR) continue to advance, with more immersive experiences and applications in fields such as education, healthcare, and entertainment.

Renewable energy sources, such as solar and wind power, see a significant increase in adoption, with more countries shifting towards cleaner energy production.

Advances in artificial intelligence (AI) lead to the development of more sophisticated chatbots and virtual assistants capable of engaging in natural and human-like conversations.

The commercial space industry experiences substantial growth, with more companies offering space tourism and the establishment of permanent human settlements on the moon or Mars becoming a topic of serious discussion.

Genetic engineering and biotechnology make significant breakthroughs, leading to the development of new treatments for diseases and potentially even advancements in human lifespan.

Blockchain technology continues to disrupt various industries, with wider adoption in sectors such as finance, supply chain management, and voting systems.

The Internet of Things (IoT) expands further, with smart homes becoming more interconnected and integrated into people's daily lives, enabling greater automation and efficiency.

The esports industry continues to grow, with larger prize pools, increased viewership, and recognition as a legitimate form of entertainment and competition.

3D printing technology advances, allowing for the production of more complex and customized items, including organs for transplant and construction materials for affordable housing.

The widespread use of drones for delivery services becomes a reality, with major retailers and logistics companies adopting drone fleets for efficient and rapid delivery of packages.

Advances in brain-computer interfaces (BCIs) enable new applications, such as controlling devices and prosthetics with the power of thought.

The rise of personalized medicine leads to more tailored treatments and therapies, utilizing a person's genetic information to provide targeted and effective healthcare solutions.

Climate change initiatives gain momentum, with increased global efforts to combat environmental issues, reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and promote sustainable practices.

The traditional education system undergoes significant transformations, with the integration of online learning platforms, adaptive learning technologies, and personalized learning experiences.

Remember, these predictions are speculative and should be taken with a grain of salt. The future is uncertain and subject to various factors that can influence outcomes.

Hans
 
Confusion said:
It was mainly the one entry for Pope Gregory XVI that had me concerned. Again, this is just my anxiety. Anything that challenges my rationalistic worldview can trigger me, and I was having trouble rationalising this particular motto.
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I'm a theist and I've looked at the Prophecy of the Popes before. I can't say I was impressed. Vaguely phrased predictions that can only be deciphered after the fact? And even then many of them don't really apply, as the Wiki article shows. That there is one like the Etruria example that may fit is more attributable to chance than anything else. Especially keep in mind:

1. The area of Etruria, near the heart of Italy. Quite large!
2. That Popes were all Italian for nearly 500 years, up until fairly recently.

Anyway, even if the Prophecy was true, what does that mean to you? I guess that, since I believe in God (though I'm not a Christian, just a theist), I'd shrug my shoulders and get on with my day. I still need to do what I believe God wants me to do (live a good life, whatever that means). That some random prophecy is correct doesn't affect me in that goal.

If you are worried about the world coming to an end by the list reaching the last Pope, then check Wiki to see how many of the Popes' descriptions DON'T match, and then on the implications of that on the last one.
 
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