Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

Paul Bethke said:
How come you are so unwisely insulting---the quote comes from the Complete Jewish Bible
So those people who are affiliated with the Hebrew language must know what they are doing?
If you had any insight you will see clearly that the Psalm is directed at the judges of Israel, who were corrupting justice.
Click to expand...

You put a rather comical amount of weight upon the name of the translation.

Back to the Mitzvot:

3. Not to blaspheme
Click to expand...

Regardless, it's pretty clear to me that your past efforts at prophesy when not actually a prophet constitute blasphemy. You are claiming an affinity with God which you do not have. You clearly violated this Mitzvot in the past. Your continued defense of these false prophesies further compounds the blasphemy. Your complete lack of repentance for having prophesied falsely is proven by the fact that you persist in defending the false prophesy.

While it can be argued that your insistence that your interpretation of English translations of scripture somehow supersedes discussion of the native languages could be argued as blasphemy, we already have proof positive you disobey this Mitzvot in the form of your being a false prophet.

On to the next Mitzvot!

4. To hallow G-d's name (Lev. 22:32) (CCA5). See The Name of G-d.
Click to expand...

Clearly, nobody here is hallowing the name of God in anything that resembled the Jewish sense if the concept. Even the religious in this thread lob out iterations of the "name of God" as described in the Bible willy-nilly, thinking nothing of its use. While it can be argued that this use is respectful from a modern Christian context, we are discussing "Paul Bethke's" claimed adherence to the old laws in a more ancient sense. Clearly, "Paul Bethke" does not obey the "Hallow God's name" Mitzvot in a manner that would be recognized by Jesus as respectful.

5. Not to profane G-d's name (Lev . 22:32) (CCN155). See The Name of G-d.
Click to expand...

This too, is not being observed for the same reasons.

6. To know that G-d is One, a complete Unity (Deut. 6:4) (CCA2). See What Do Jews Believe?.
Click to expand...

Well, this one is violated by ALL Christians, hands down. The concept of the trinity is a ham-fisted effort to hand-wave this one, but the reality is the Christian version of God is inconsistent with the idea of God being a single unified being.

Didn't I say going though these in a categorized form would let us speed along?

7. To love G-d (Deut. 6:5) (CCA3). See What Do Jews Believe?.
Click to expand...
I'm willing to concede that "Paul Bethke" loves God to the best of his ability. Using God as a crutch for an extended revenge fantasy ("See the "Signs of the End Times" thread for examples) and repeatedly blaspheming against him with false prophesies do not preclude loving God.

8. To fear Him reverently (Deut. 6:13; 10:20) (CCA4).
Click to expand...
While "Paul Bethke" admonishes US to fear God, I see no indication he fears God himself. I'd like to hear Paul's response to his adherence, or lack thereof, to this Mitzvot.

9. Not to put the word of G-d to the test (Deut. 6:16) (negative).
Click to expand...

I'd say "Paul Bethke's" dabbling in prophesy and his effort to enter the Million Dollar Challenge with promises of a miracle definitely constitute testing God.

10. To imitate His good and upright ways (Deut. 28:9) (CCA6).
Click to expand...

This may be a controversial statement, but I'm going to say "Paul Bethke" obeys this one too. He has VERY different ideas about what constitutes virtuous acts, but his wholesale genocide apologetic is at least consistent. He's clearly a big fan of God's actions, even when modern minds see some of those actions as abhorrent and evil.
 
halleyscomet said:
You put a rather comical amount of weight upon the name of the translation.
Click to expand...

Indeed, and it's a fatal error. He has inferred from the name that it is a literal translation, but we can determine that it is not by looking at the Masorah. This irrevocably refutes Paul's claim of immunity to poor translations. He does not test quality; he only infers it.

That inference has led him to commit an error of fact. Heretofore most of Paul's errors have been errors in interpretation, from which he can slip simply (albeit circularly) by claiming his interpretation is authoritative. However no such defense cures an error of fact. There is untold debate on what the text means. There is practically no debate on what the text says, and certainly none in the passages Paul quoted.

Paul has committed an error of fact. This proves beyond reasonable doubt that he is not infallible. Therefore any argument that depends on a premise of his infallibility fails as well.
 
This reaches back to some of the sexual assault discussion from the "Signs of the End Times" thread, but apparently Malaysia has some laws regarding sexual assault that, based upon their past statements, our "Paul Bethke" and Irreligiosophy's foil Kirk Hastings might approve of.

Malaysia man charged with rape escapes jail by marrying 14-year old victim

Rights groups condemn laws allowing rapists to enter 'marriage of convenience' with victims
Click to expand...

Malaysian rapist avoids jail after marrying victim
 
http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/paul
efn2Vwg.png
 
JayUtah said:
Good luck getting customers (or congregants) to agree to that.
Click to expand...

Most Christians already concede to that specification. Some are REALLY happy with it because they have issues with Jews. Heck, some guy named Hitler has a special edition of the manual written to explicitly exclude not just the Judaism API but any references to remnants of it in Christianity!
 
Now that Paul is back, let's take a look at another batch of Mitzvot:

11. To honor the old and the wise (Lev. 19:32) (CCA17).
Click to expand...

I'm marking this one as "unknown" but I doubt Paul follows it. He's had some very uncharitable things to say about the religious leaders in his area, and while he has deep respect for the most racist traditions and ideologies, I can't recall him expressing respect for elders.

12. To learn Torah and to teach it (Deut. 6:7) (CCA14).
Click to expand...

His demonstrable Biblical illiteracy proves he does NOT follow this one.

13. To cleave to those who know Him (Deut. 10:20) (the Talmud states that cleaving to scholars is equivalent to cleaving to Him) (CCA16).
Click to expand...

Again, it's clear he doesn't follow this one, given his comments about the religious leaders in his area being corrupt for not following his teachings. He's stated he does not attend church and for all intents and purposes appears to be operating in a religious vacuum, disconnected from other faithful.

14. Not to add to the commandments of the Torah, whether in the Written Law or in its interpretation received by tradition (Deut. 13:1) (CCN159).
Click to expand...

Paul has crafted his own special interpretation of the Bible, including the claim that native Africans are dark skinned as a result of being cursed for eating monkeys and gorillas.

15. Not to take away from the commandments of the Torah (Deut. 13:1) (CCN160).
Click to expand...

I'll grant Paul this one, insomuch as any Christian of any variety can follow this one.

16. That every person shall write a scroll of the Torah for himself (Deut. 31:19) (CCA15).
Click to expand...

It could be argued that this Mitzvot can be ignored due to the ready availability of mass production of printed and digital texts, but I would argue that part of the point of this Mitzvot isn't just about making sure there are copies of the holy text around, but to act as a mechanism for study. For example, the first time I read the Bible cover to cover started when I was 11, and I took notes on every chapter. Paul's demonstrated Biblical knowledge tells us without a doubt he has not followed this Mitzvot by any definition, unless you count buying Bibles.
 
After weeks of silence on the topic, Paul has explicitly given up on this discussion.

Paul Bethke said:
I never ran away from the discussion regarding the 613 Mitsvot—I showed how futile this would be and the time it would take to go through all the 613 Mitvot.
Times and Seasons
107. That the new month shall be solemnly proclaimed as holy, and the months and years shall be calculated by the Supreme Court only (Ex. 12:2) (affirmative) (the authority to declare months is inferred from the use of the word "unto you").
108. Not to travel on Shabbat outside the limits of one's place of residence (Ex. 16:29) (CCN7). SeeShabbat.
109. To sanctify Shabbat (Ex. 20:8) (CCA19). See Shabbat.
110. Not to do work on Shabbat (Ex. 20:10) (CCN6). See Shabbat.
111. To rest on Shabbat (Ex. 23:12; 34:21) (CCA20). See Shabbat.
112. To celebrate the festivals [Passover, Shavu'ot and Sukkot] (Ex. 23:14) (affirmative).
113. To rejoice on the festivals (Deut. 16:14) (CCA21).
114. To appear in the Sanctuary on the festivals (Deut. 16:16) (affirmative).
115. To remove chametz on the Eve of Passover (Ex. 12:15) (CCA22). See Passover.
116. To rest on the first day of Passover (Ex. 12:16; Lev. 23:7) (CCA25). See Passover.
117. Not to do work on the first day of Passover (Ex. 12:16; Lev. 23:6-7) (CCN147). See Passover.
118. To rest on the seventh day of Passover (Ex. 12:16; Lev. 23:8) (CCA27). See Passover.
119. Not to do work on the seventh day of Passover (Ex. 12:16; Lev. 23:8) (CCN148). See Passover.
120. To eat matzah on the first night of Passover (Ex. 12:18) (CCA23). See Passover.
121. That no chametz be in the Israelite's possession during Passover (Ex. 12:19) (CCN3). See Passover.
122. Not to eat any food containing chametz on Passover (Ex. 12:20) (CCN5). See Passover.
123. Not to eat chametz on Passover (Ex. 13:3) (CCN4). See Passover.
124. That chametz shall not be seen in an Israelite's home during Passover (Ex. 13:7) (CCN2). SeePassover.
So again are we to go through each one of these Mitvot?

No I do not think it is possible for you to be guilty of such actions.
Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur. This is the second death."
Click to expand...

In light of Paul's insistence that this is a "futile" discussion due to "the time it would take" I am embarking upon a little writing project of my own. The Atheist's Guide to the 613 Mitzvot. The title is work in progress. I'm really more of a deist myself. My goal is to go through the list before the end of 2016. Let's see if I make it. :)
 
They are good laws

This thread misleading—I am not against the 613 Mitsvot, because they are a collection of the laws that God through Moses gave the Hebrews. When one reads through these laws, it can be seen that they cannot apply to everyone. That being the case, it is then a better solution to consider which of those laws can be applied today to a person who does not live in Israel and who is not a Jew.

One for instance is that I am not a farmer, and as such this law is not applicable.
The Temple does not exist so I do not have to go up to Jerusalem every year.

So as I said, one will have to go through those laws to distinguish which laws can be applied to a Gentile.

The Decalogue, the Ten Commands is the starting point.

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

For each mitzvah, I have provided a citation to the biblical passage or passages from which it is derived, based primarily on Rambam. For commandments that can be observed today, I have also provided citations to the Chafetz Chayim's Concise Book of Mitzvot (CCA refers to affirmative commandments; CCN refers to negative commandments; CCI refers to commandments that only apply in Israel). Commandments that cannot be observed today primarily relate to the Temple, its sacrifices and services (because the Temple does not exist) and criminal procedures (because the theocratic state of Israel does not exist).
Click to expand...
 
Back in the saddle again.

A recent discussion in Paul's monolithic thread where he repeatedly insists he's a prophet without making any accurate prophesies reminded me of where we left off here:

Signs and Symbols

To circumcise the male offspring (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3) (CCA47) See Brit Milah: Circumcision.
To put tzitzit on the corners of clothing (Num. 15:38) (CCA10). See Tzitzit and Tallit.
To bind tefillin on the head (Deut. 6:8) (CCA9). See Tefillin.
To bind tefillin on the arm (Deut. 6:8) (CCA8). See Tefillin.
To affix the mezuzah to the doorposts and gates of your house (Deut. 6:9) (CCA12). See Mezuzah.
Click to expand...

Given the way Paul dismisses all the Mitzvot outside of the Ten Commandments, keeping vaguely kosher and his interpretation of "adultery" I think we can safely say he follows one of the clothing laws described above. He even had some very nasty things to say about the hair of Orthodox Jews in the original branch of his "Signs of the End Times" thread.

The only real question here is if he advocates circumcision and practices it himself.

While it's unlikely Paul would care about putting up a Mezuzah, it's worth inquiring.
 
Last edited:
Beady said:
Jesus Christ, what a horrible thought!

This signature is intended to irritate people.
Click to expand...

You raise a good point. I'd assumed Paul Bethke would be going to a doctor to get himself and any sons he may have circumcised. Does he perform them himself? Is it conducted as a religious observance or as a medical procedure?

I think it's safe to say he doesn't perform the controversial form of the "suction" stage. That would be WAAAAAY too far into the Orthodox Judaism he's mocked in the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milah

http://www.jewfaq.org/birth.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/artic...h/The-Circumcision-Ceremony-in-a-Nutshell.htm

The deity of the Bible was willing to straight up murder Moses in cold blood over Circumcision. This is NOT one of the "futile" Mitzvot Paul Bethke is so happy to hand-wave as unimportant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipporah_at_the_inn

Exodus 4:24–26

24 At a lodging place on the way, the Lord met Mosesb and was about to kill him. 25 But Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son’s foreskin and touched Moses’ feet with it.c “Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me,” she said. 26 So the Lord let him alone. (At that time she said “bridegroom of blood,” referring to circumcision.)
Click to expand...
 
Paul Bethke said:
So what is his point --what does he want to prove--has it got any value. Am I a Jew
Is he a Jew--so where did he come by this that he expects me to know?
Click to expand...

He's asking you about the original Hebrew of verses you quoted, and you went off on a tangent about a different word.

Unless you are engaging in deliberate misdirection, you seem to be implying that only a Jew would know or understand the original Hebrew, a claim that I'm sure will come as quite a surprise to most Seminary students.
 
halleyscomet said:
He's asking you about the original Hebrew of verses you quoted, and you went off on a tangent about a different word.

Unless you are engaging in deliberate misdirection, you seem to be implying that only a Jew would know or understand the original Hebrew, a claim that I'm sure will come as quite a surprise to most Seminary students.
Click to expand...

:w2:
 
halleyscomet said:
You raise a good point. I'd assumed Paul Bethke would be going to a doctor to get himself and any sons he may have circumcised. Does he perform them himself? Is it conducted as a religious observance or as a medical procedure?

I think it's safe to say he doesn't perform the controversial form of the "suction" stage. That would be WAAAAAY too far into the Orthodox Judaism he's mocked in the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milah

http://www.jewfaq.org/birth.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/artic...h/The-Circumcision-Ceremony-in-a-Nutshell.htm

The deity of the Bible was willing to straight up murder Moses in cold blood over Circumcision. This is NOT one of the "futile" Mitzvot Paul Bethke is so happy to hand-wave as unimportant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipporah_at_the_inn
Click to expand...

After some discussion in the "Signs of the End Times - Part Two" thread, it's become clear Paul Bethke is not circumcised and he would not circumcise any sons.

It's also become clear he doesn't follow any of the following:

halleyscomet said:
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
17. To circumcise the male offspring (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3) (CCA47) See Brit Milah: Circumcision.
18. To put tzitzit on the corners of clothing (Num. 15:38) (CCA10). See Tzitzit and Tallit.
19. To bind tefillin on the head (Deut. 6:8) (CCA9). See Tefillin.
20. To bind tefillin on the arm (Deut. 6:8) (CCA8). See Tefillin.
21. To affix the mezuzah to the doorposts and gates of your house (Deut. 6:9) (CCA12). See Mezuzah.
Click to expand...

This leaves us with the current status:

1 Unknown
0 N/A
6 Follows
12 Does not Follow
20 Does not Apply to Christians
2 Did not Answer
1 Does not apply to private citizens

It's been a while since I revisited this, so I tink I need to do a bit of cleanup of the spreadsheet. The categories need a bit more formalization.
 
Last edited:
The existing "Does not Apply to Christians" items have been reclassified as "Does not Follow" because all the ones listed so far were about Passover. Paul's "explanation" for not observing Passover was to conflate it with a bunch of other Jewish holidays and dismiss them as a block. Since he has offered no actual reason not to observe Passover, the Mitzvot regarding it should be classified as "Does not Follow."

I'm keeping the "Does not Apply to Christians" category however as there are sound theological grounds for Christians not doing things like engaging in animal sacrifice.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom