Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

[JayUtah]

Now once again you are wrong—

No, once again I am not. And once again your own followup is evidence that I am right.

it is the cafeteria Christian approach that does not follow the teachings of Christ...

Agreed. By your own description, you take a cafeteria-Christian approach to the mitzvot. Therefore you cannot claim to be better obedient than other Christians. You're no better than they. You excuse your disobedience using the same rhetoric as they.

...with regards to a sanctified marriage, permitting divorced people to remarry.

Please, enough with your obsession over sex.

I am saying that all commands are essential, and must be taught in order to understand the terms of the New Covenant, that replaces the Temple and the worship of Yahweh.

This is the cafeteria Christian approach.

It is about adultery, and sexual immorality...

Sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, ad nauseam.

So it is my critics who do not understand how to pair the laws of Torah with the laws that are present today.

You're simply inventing your own framework for following the mitzvot. Your critics understand all too well what you're doing: you're redefining obedience to mean whatever it is you do. Your arguments everywhere consist of making outrageous claims to have superlative personal traits, but supporting them only by redefining what those traits are and what bar has to be cleared to claim it.

 

[Zivan]

The Jewish festivals cannot be practices by other nations as there are different time zones,

Millions of people, living in nations around the world, still keep the festivals today.

"Times zones" do NOT stop the keeping of the festivals.

You are lying. Again.

but the Sabbath being of major importance can be put into effect, but will cause major complications, due to time zones.

Why do you not keep the Sabbath?

Millions of people, living in nations around the world, keep the Sabbath.

"Times zones" do NOT "cause major complications".

You are lying. AGAIN!

 

[Paul Bethke]

No, once again I am not. And once again your own followup is evidence that I am right.
Agreed. By your own description, you take a cafeteria-Christian approach to the mitzvot. Therefore you cannot claim to be better obedient than other Christians. You're no better than they. You excuse your disobedience using the same rhetoric as they.
Please, enough with your obsession over sex.This is the cafeteria Christian approach.
Sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, ad nauseam.You're simply inventing your own framework for following the mitzvot. Your critics understand all too well what you're doing: you're redefining obedience to mean whatever it is you do. Your arguments everywhere consist of making outrageous claims to have superlative personal traits, but supporting them only by redefining what those traits are and what bar has to be cleared to claim it.

I told you that you do not understand the Scriptures as adultery was the main cause for the banishment of Israel out of the land allocated to them.

Everywhere one is confronted with the incitement to commit adultery, so why not highlight this evil that is plaguing the world today.

The commands of the Creator is focused on the sanctified marriage covenant, and as such to have a protect the family unity.
Mal 2:14 You ask, "Why?" It is because the LORD is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.
Mal 2:15 Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth.
Mal 2:16 "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.

So, divorce is likened to violence.

So now the commands---Mal 4:5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.
Mal 4:6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."

Here in South Africa, there are some five million children who do not live with their fathers, so until marriage is established as critical to a nations wellbeing, the other important laws will not make a difference.

Leviticus_24:21 Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a man must be put to death.

So the laws of justice must be put in place as the Creator decreed—

Leviticus 18:5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD

The death penalty must be established as the punishment for murder, rape, and kidnapping.

The laws that prohibit the following practices must be highlighted---Deuteronomy 18:9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

So yes, there are many laws that can be paired with the Torah.
So, the Torah is a means to put an END to sin.

Hebrews_4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

So, the mature mind will understand the correlation between the Torah and their application to the laws in force today.

So lying, stealing, murder is a crime—but adultery is seen as not important.
Proverbs_6:32 But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Millions of people, living in nations around the world, still keep the festivals today.
"Times zones" do NOT stop the keeping of the festivals.
You are lying. Again.
Why do you not keep the Sabbath?
Millions of people, living in nations around the world, keep the Sabbath.
"Times zones" do NOT "cause major complications".
You are lying. AGAIN!

Millions of people do not keep the Sabbath as stipulated—because working on the Sabbath was and is the main criteria.
Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labour and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.

So, if everyone kept the Sabbath as stipulated then there would be no work on the Sabbath, bringing everything to a standstill. So, time zones would effect most every function of work.

Just one function, air travel will have to be coordinated to prevent working on the Sabbath from one zone to another.

Jewish festivals are specified for a certain day, which again will effect functions which stipulate no working on that day. Besides the amount of days will also effect people.

Now will the world be subject to the Jewish days as specified in the Torah.
I keep Sunday as a Sabbath—a day that Yahweh is acknowledge as the ONLY Creator who created the worlds in six days.

But if I lived in Israel I would conform to the requirements stipulated.

 

[Zivan]

Millions of people do not keep the Sabbath as stipulated

But, millions of people DO keep the Sabbath.

I keep Sunday as a Sabbath—a day that Yahweh is acknowledge as the ONLY Creator who created the worlds in six days.

So, you do NOT keep the Sabbath.

In tanakh, shabbat is the SEVENTH day.

You keep Sunday as your so called "sabbath".

Saturday is the shabbat according to tanakh.

In hebrew, sunday is called "yom rishon" which means "1st day".

The hebrew word for saturday is "shabbat".

So, you do NOT keep shabbat according to tanakh.

 

[JayUtah]

I told you that you do not understand the Scriptures as adultery was the main cause for the banishment of Israel out of the land allocated to them.

I know you told me. I disagree with what you told me. Do you understand that people who disagree with you are not automatically wrong? Do you understand that telling a person something is not the same thing as proving it to be right? Once again you're simply ruling on correctness solely by whether someone agrees with you or not. Does it ever enter your thinking that you may be wrong?

I feel this discussion is hampered by problems you're having with basic comprehension and cognition. Are you in full possession of your faculties?

 

[halleyscomet]

Millions of people do not keep the Sabbath as stipulated—because working on the Sabbath was and is the main criteria.
Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labour and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.

So, if everyone kept the Sabbath as stipulated then there would be no work on the Sabbath, bringing everything to a standstill. So, time zones would effect most every function of work.

Just one function, air travel will have to be coordinated to prevent working on the Sabbath from one zone to another.

Jewish festivals are specified for a certain day, which again will effect functions which stipulate no working on that day. Besides the amount of days will also effect people.

Now will the world be subject to the Jewish days as specified in the Torah.
I keep Sunday as a Sabbath—a day that Yahweh is acknowledge as the ONLY Creator who created the worlds in six days.

But if I lived in Israel I would conform to the requirements stipulated.

Dude.

Most the start and end points of the festivals and the Sabbath are based upon LOCAL SUNSET, not upon Jerusalem time.

Every single time zone argument you've made is complete and utter bullocks, it's ignorant drivel divorced from reality. Your "time zone" argument is based upon a nonsensical imaginary version of Judaism that quite literally exists only in your own mind. Jews have a few THOUSAND years experience preserving their religion and culture far, far away from Jerusalem. They were old hands at it long before Jesus was born.

To make your argument even MORE absurd, even IF there was some sort of time zone issue with observing the Sabbath and the festivals, Jerusalem and Johannesburg are only about an hour apart. South Africa only covers two measly time zones. You're jettisoning large swaths of the Mitzvot to avoid a mild inconvenience. Talk about cherry picking and cafeteria Christianity!

 

[Zivan]

I told you that you do not understand the Scriptures as adultery was the main cause for the banishment of Israel out of the land allocated to them.

<snip sex, sex, sex, sex,

blah, blah, blah,

sex, sex, sex, sex,

more bad translation quotes

sex, sex, sex, sex>


Proverbs_6:32 But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself.

 

[Border Reiver]

The death penalty must be established as the punishment for murder, rape, and kidnapping.

Many societies use the death penalty for these offences, it does not prevent these offences from occurring. The death penalty was the go-to punishment for those offences, and many others during the period of the Bloody Code in Great Britain (1790s to the 1830s) and the crime rate was through the absolute roof. Around 1829 with the introduction of police for enforcement, the start of a public prosecutor and the lessening use of capital punishment, along with a myriad of social reforms such as better education and wages led to a steady lowering of the crime rate and the occurrence of these and other offences.

The case of Canada can also be used - we stopped executing people in 1963, formally revoked the death penalty in1976 for everyone but the armed forces and then removed it as a potential sentence from the Code of Service Discipline in 1999. And the crime rate keeps dropping.

 

[JayUtah]

Millions of people do not keep the Sabbath as stipulated—

That is perhaps true, but the point is not that there exist sinners, but that there exist people who are demonstrably more obedient than you. Some people disobey, and give various excuses for their disobedience -- there's no temple, it's too inconvenient, it's impractical, they don't live in Israel, they aren't Jewish, etc. Other people, however, find ways around the inconvenience and impracticality, and around all the other excuses. They manage to keep the sabbath and the festivals just fine. You cannot claim to be more obedient than they. You cannot claim that your excuses are valid; they're just the same as all the other slackers. Again, the problem is not that there are sinners who are less faithful than you, but that there are believers who are more faithful than you.

 

[halleyscomet]

Yes, millions of people DO keep the Sabbath.

You are lying. Again.




So, you do NOT keep the Sabbath.

In tanakh, shabbat is the SEVENTH day.

You keep Sunday as your so called "sabbath".

Saturday is the shabbat according to tanakh.

In hebrew, sunday is called "yom rishon" which means "1st day".

The hebrew word for saturday is "shabbat".

So, you do NOT keep shabbat according to tanakh.

Christians observe a Sabbath on Sunday only because Jesus was believed to have risen from the dead on Sunday. He spent Saturday dead, which I supposed is about as "resting" a state as one can get.

Paul Bethke seems to be one of the individuals who, though an embarrassing bit of ignorance, thinks Sunday is the Sabbath ordained in the Old Testament.

 

[Zivan]

Christians observe a Sabbath on Sunday only because Jesus was believed to have risen from the dead on Sunday. He spent Saturday dead, which I supposed is about as "resting" a state as one can get.

True

Paul Bethke seems to be one of the individuals who, though an embarrassing bit of ignorance, thinks Sunday is the Sabbath ordained in the Old Testament.

Yes, and his ignorance is a bizarre source of extreme pride and ego for him......

 

[abaddon]

I told you that you do not understand the Scriptures as adultery was the main cause for the banishment of Israel out of the land allocated to them.

<snip sex, sex, sex, sex,

blah, blah, blah,

sex, sex, sex, sex,

more bad translation quotes

sex, sex, sex, sex>


Proverbs_6:32 But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself.

[/QUOTE]
Odd, isn't it. Always PB comes back to the sex obsession. I wonder about that, but speculation is bootless.

In any event, I have countless people known to me who have not only sex but also children. No marriage involved on either side. And thus no adultery either. It might be that PB has a very different definition of adultery. If so, he has not REVEALED it. Isn't random capitalisation fun?

 

[halleyscomet]

Odd, isn't it. Always PB comes back to the sex obsession. I wonder about that, but speculation is bootless.

In any event, I have countless people known to me who have not only sex but also children. No marriage involved on either side. And thus no adultery either. It might be that PB has a very different definition of adultery. If so, he has not REVEALED it. Isn't random capitalisation fun?[/QUOTE]

Oh, he's revealed his definition. He believes that sex constitutes a marriage. According to him, if an unmarried man rapes a virgin woman, that woman is now the rapist's wife, like it or not. If she goes on to get married before the rapist is dead, then she will, according to Paul Bethke, be committing adultery.

If those friends of yours were virgins before they started having sex and kids, then they're married as far as Paul Bethke is concerned. If they AREN'T still having sex with their very first partner, then unless that partner has died, they are committing adultery. At least, that's the way things are according to Paul Bethke and his virginity fetish.

 

[Zivan]

Christians observe a Sabbath on Sunday only because Jesus was believed to have risen from the dead on Sunday.

Yes and I think normal christians know this and do not pretend otherwise (unlike PB).

Educated christians know about church history, and when and why the change was made. They do not make excuses (like PB from ignorance) and have no need for excuses. The reason for the change is clear to them (unlike PB).

 

[Zivan]

Odd, isn't it. Always PB comes back to the sex obsession. I wonder about that, but speculation is bootless.

Yes, his sex obession is very odd.

And I think we all have the same "speculation" regarding his bizarre obsession........

 

[abaddon]

Oh, he's revealed his definition. He believes that sex constitutes a marriage. According to him, if an unmarried man rapes a virgin woman, that woman is now the rapist's wife, like it or not. If she goes on to get married before the rapist is dead, then she will, according to Paul Bethke, be committing adultery.

If those friends of yours were virgins before they started having sex and kids, then they're married as far as Paul Bethke is concerned. If they AREN'T still having sex with their very first partner, then unless that partner has died, they are committing adultery. At least, that's the way things are according to Paul Bethke and his virginity fetish.

That's what is most odd. PB's god is obsessed with what goes on in our underpants. One might be forgiven for thinking that the creator of everything had better ways to spend his/her/its/housecats time, but no. The claim is that god is really, really interested in our bedroom activities even though said god equipped us for those very same bedroom activities. Was god not paying attention?

In any event, I have a teen who is going to end up some flavour of LGBTQ, exactly which, I don't know. All I can do is support her. PB's religion would have me kill her.

Make of that what you will.

 

[halleyscomet]

Yes and I think normal christians know this and do not pretend otherwise (unlike PB).

Educated christians know about church history, and when and why the change was made. They do not make excuses (like PB from ignorance) and have no need for excuses. The reason for the change is clear to them (unlike PB).

Among Christians, not understanding that the Biblical Sabbath is Saturday and Christians rescheduled the Sabbath to Sunday is something I'd expect from a third grader. It's mistakes like this that cause us to refer to Paul Bethke having a second to third grade understanding of scripture.

 

[halleyscomet]

That's what is most odd. PB's god is obsessed with what goes on in our underpants. One might be forgiven for thinking that the creator of everything had better ways to spend his/her/its/housecats time, but no. The claim is that god is really, really interested in our bedroom activities even though said god equipped us for those very same bedroom activities. Was god not paying attention?

In any event, I have a teen who is going to end up some flavour of LGBTQ, exactly which, I don't know. All I can do is support her. PB's religion would have me kill her.

Make of that what you will.

You're morally superior to whatever entity Paul Bethke claims to worship?

 

[Paul Bethke]

Odd, isn't it. Always PB comes back to the sex obsession. I wonder about that, but speculation is bootless.

In any event, I have countless people known to me who have not only sex but also children. No marriage involved on either side. And thus no adultery either. It might be that PB has a very different definition of adultery. If so, he has not REVEALED it. Isn't random capitalisation fun?

But you do not understand, that sex constitutes marriage, and if the couple part and have sex with another that is adultery.
Marriage as the Creator decreed is that one man to have one wife and one woman to have one husband, anything else is adultery.
So now you know what is adultery, look around you and you will SEE how many people are committing adultery!

I am not obsessed with sex, but rather concerned how many people are living in adultery and how many children are sexually exploited. I am concerned that the Church has lost its mandate to warn people of the dangers of violating the command—do not commit adultery.
The world is over populated because of adultery and sexual immorality.
The world is full of single mothers—this is a contagion.
People are always speaking of their exes.

Adultery caused Israel to be rejected and sent back into captivity in the land of the Babylonians.
Jerimiah_5:7 "Why should I forgive you? Your children have forsaken me and sworn by gods that are not gods. I supplied all their needs, yet they committed adultery and thronged to the houses of prostitutes.

Proverbs_6:32 But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself.

This can be seen in the life of King David who took another man’s wife and had her husband murdered.
Exodus 20:17 "You shall not covet your neighbour’s house. You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour."

Then David’s son raped his half sister.