Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

[Peregrinus]

All the foregoing blather over supposed laws from a supposed creator/god/supernatural agent for whom there isn't a shred of credible evidence. (And no, PB, self-referential fiction is not evidence.)

 

[Paul Bethke]

I figured your parents wouldn't meet your purity criteria. So we know you don't honor them. They're also going to be cursed by the same vows of impending damnation you've given for all of us, so we know where you stand on those points.

Do you beat your parents? You still haven't answered that one.

You are speculating again—you figured wrong as always, you are not worth communicating with.

 

[JayUtah]

There are many commands that are applicable, especially the Ten Commands which you do not SEE as the most important of all.

I do not recognize the validity of falling back to the Ten Commandments time and again when the subject here is the 613 mitzvot you claim perfectly to obey. I do not recognize the validity of such a fallback when you have specifically said we need to examine each mitzvah in turn.

So if you and others want to go through all the laws to SEE which are still applicable then go ahead, I am sure many will find this interesting.

You don't find it very interesting. Halleyscomet has been trying to do this for weeks, only to have you constantly retreat to talking about the Ten Commandments and adultery. Do we have your word that you will respond promptly, honestly, relevantly, and fully to halleyscomet's questions on the individual mitzvot? Please answer only yes or no, with no scripture dumps or irrelevant discussion. And yes, we will use that answer later to accuse you of lying, if it becomes necessary. So answer carefully for the record.

 

[halleyscomet]

You are speculating again—you figured wrong as always

If you don't like the conclusions I reach from your meandering obfuscation, try communicating instead of obfuscating. Speak plainly for a change.

Since you can't bring yourself to say you DON'T beat your parents I am forced to make my own conclusions.

If my conclusions are wrong, then tell me what I actually got wrong. Vague insults convey no meaningful information.

you are not worth communicating with.

How would you know? You've never tried.

 

[Paul Bethke]

I do not recognize the validity of falling back to the Ten Commandments time and again when the subject here is the 613 mitzvot you claim perfectly to obey. I do not recognize the validity of such a fallback when you have specifically said we need to examine each mitzvah in turn.

But can you not understand that not all of the commands can be obeyed because of the present situation with the Temple and because I am not a Jew living in Israel—so which commands are still valid for a Gentile convert to apply as to be accepted into the Covenant of Yahweh.

You don't find it very interesting. Halleyscomet has been trying to do this for weeks, only to have you constantly retreat to talking about the Ten Commandments and adultery. Do we have your word that you will respond promptly, honestly, relevantly, and fully to halleyscomet's questions on the individual mitzvot? Please answer only yes or no, with no scripture dumps or irrelevant discussion. And yes, we will use that answer later to accuse you of lying, if it becomes necessary. So answer carefully for the record.

Once again it is what is taught to a Gentile that is applicable—so focus on the commands as what is required to enter into the faith. Comet pursues a way that is offensive.

It is what I will teach people in order for them to be accepted into the faith—and it is what commands will be instituted when the Kingdom of Yahweh is established, and it is what prophesies will be used to establish the Kingdom of God.

So the Ten Commands will be the initial structure of commands to identify a person’s consideration to be accepted. Adultery will be the primary consideration.

So the scores of other commands will be considered in the establishment of the Kingdom of God.
Many nations have rejected the death penalty for murder, rape and kidnapping, so this will be established as the way to deal with this type of crime.

So it is not what Christianity accepts that the Torah is abolished in total, and replaced with grace.
An important consideration is that many commands are part of the basis of law in many nations.

So when a more intelligent discussion can take place along the lines of what is applicable, then there is no purpose in proceeding.

The Jewish festivals cannot be practices by other nations as there are different time zones, but the Sabbath being of major importance can be put into effect, but will cause major complications, due to time zones.

Now my focus is in South Africa, and how many laws can be instituted. So using the commands I can separate the good from the evil. Using the Dutch Reformed Church as an example of what the true Church should be like, will be an example for all Churches to follow.

So yes every command has an application, and a means for understanding the truth, because it is only in truth that the Creator can be worshipped.

So, I am not going to be cornered into following Comets method.

I am well aware of the outcome in preaching the demands of the faith and what consequences will follow—but if these sins are not curtailed now, then the result will be catastrophic. Even now the sin in the world is disastrous.

So yes sexual immorality tops the sin in the world today. Adultery is destructive.

Proverbs_6:32 But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself.

So here is another prophetic statement that will apply in time to come. Isaiah_60:12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish; it will be utterly ruined.

 

[Border Reiver]

But can you not understand that not all of the commands can be obeyed because of the present situation with the Temple and because I am not a Jew living in Israel—so which commands are still valid for a Gentile convert to apply as to be accepted into the Covenant of Yahweh.

Given that several of the Mitzvot concern themselves with building a Temple and setting up an altar, why wouldn't all of the commands be obeyed?

The Covenant of Yahweh is set out in Exodus 34 and it commands that certain festivals be kept - why don't you?

 

[abaddon]

But can you not understand that not all of the commands can be obeyed because of the present situation with the Temple and because I am not a Jew living in Israel—so which commands are still valid for a Gentile convert to apply as to be accepted into the Covenant of Yahweh.



Once again it is what is taught to a Gentile that is applicable—so focus on the commands as what is required to enter into the faith. Comet pursues a way that is offensive.

It is what I will teach people in order for them to be accepted into the faith—and it is what commands will be instituted when the Kingdom of Yahweh is established, and it is what prophesies will be used to establish the Kingdom of God.

So the Ten Commands will be the initial structure of commands to identify a person’s consideration to be accepted. Adultery will be the primary consideration.

So the scores of other commands will be considered in the establishment of the Kingdom of God.
Many nations have rejected the death penalty for murder, rape and kidnapping, so this will be established as the way to deal with this type of crime.

So it is not what Christianity accepts that the Torah is abolished in total, and replaced with grace.
An important consideration is that many commands are part of the basis of law in many nations.

So when a more intelligent discussion can take place along the lines of what is applicable, then there is no purpose in proceeding.

The Jewish festivals cannot be practices by other nations as there are different time zones, but the Sabbath being of major importance can be put into effect, but will cause major complications, due to time zones.

Now my focus is in South Africa, and how many laws can be instituted. So using the commands I can separate the good from the evil. Using the Dutch Reformed Church as an example of what the true Church should be like, will be an example for all Churches to follow.

So yes every command has an application, and a means for understanding the truth, because it is only in truth that the Creator can be worshipped.

So, I am not going to be cornered into following Comets method.

I am well aware of the outcome in preaching the demands of the faith and what consequences will follow—but if these sins are not curtailed now, then the result will be catastrophic. Even now the sin in the world is disastrous.

So yes sexual immorality tops the sin in the world today. Adultery is destructive.

Proverbs_6:32 But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself.

So here is another prophetic statement that will apply in time to come. Isaiah_60:12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish; it will be utterly ruined.

Right, you admit you simply cherry pick which parts of the bible you like. That is just a bit hypocritical, no?

 

[Paul Bethke]

Right, you admit you simply cherry pick which parts of the bible you like. That is just a bit hypocritical, no?

No what is done is to take those commands that apply to the current situation into account.

What you need to understand is that some commands are not in effect today as the Temple with its numerous laws are redundant.

Jewish festivals are for Israel, but the majority of commands still have an application as to justice, and family unity.

Now because the world we live in is not the same world that the Hebrews lived in when they came out of Egypt from slavery, we need to find a parallel context.

But as I emphasise the Ten Commands still have a cardinal application, these commands are a universal application, because they have an influence on all morality.

Then there are the commands that explain the application of the Decalogue.
Then there are the laws that deal with the violation of the Decalogue.
So, the object is to impose laws that protect people from evil.
There are laws about hygiene.
There are laws about the safety of people.
There are laws with regards to animal welfare.

But all of these laws are of no value where there is not a sanctified marriage as we will be living as it is in a world of adultery, like it was before the flood in the time of Noah.

So, no cherry picking—rather a serious approach.

 

[Border Reiver]

No what is done is to take those commands that apply to the current situation into account.

Aren't Yahweh's commands for all time and for all people?

I don't see anything in the Bible that would lead one to believe that Yahweh would accept anything less then total and utter obedience to his Word - all of them.

You'd better start getting your apologetics ready.

What you need to understand is that some commands are not in effect today as the Temple with its numerous laws are redundant.

In Exodus 25:8 Yahweh commands you to make a sanctuary, rendering your excuse, "But the Temple was destroyed Oh LORD" invalid. You are to make another.

Jewish festivals are for Israel, but the majority of commands still have an application as to justice, and family unity.

Exodus 34 clearly sets out the Covenant - and the Festivals that are to be kept. If you're not keeping the Festivals, you're not part of the Covenant.

Now because the world we live in is not the same world that the Hebrews lived in when they came out of Egypt from slavery, we need to find a parallel context.

Absolutely right - which is why we no longer kill everyone who breaks a law, punish the victim alongside the offender, or believe that it is just that the children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren of people should pay for the errors of their parents, etc.

But as I emphasise the Ten Commands still have a cardinal application, these commands are a universal application, because they have an influence on all morality.

The ones you like to emphasize (murder, theft, and especially adultery) are copied from earlier legal systems. They do not represent a unique understanding of justice by the authors of the Bible, they are a plagiarized set of rules adopted to cement the power of the priestly clan and to give gravitas to some fairly basic rules of human society.

Then there are the commands that explain the application of the Decalogue.
Then there are the laws that deal with the violation of the Decalogue.
So, the object is to impose laws that protect people from evil.
There are laws about hygiene.
There are laws about the safety of people.
There are laws with regards to animal welfare.

But all of these laws are of no value where there is not a sanctified marriage as we will be living as it is in a world of adultery, like it was before the flood in the time of Noah.

And we're back to your obsession with sex and adultery again.

You're like a 19th century preacher railing on about the vileness of carnal lust while using the pulpit to hide his hard-on, but without the effective use of language or persuasion.

So, no cherry picking—rather a serious approach.

Sorry, you ARE cherry-picking. You are choosing which of the laws you want to follow, and basing your decision on whatever is convenient to you, not according to any basic principles.

The Mitzvot commands you to build a sanctuary, yet you claim you cannot follow the rules applicable to a Temple.

The Mitzvot commands you to be circumcized and to circumcise your sons - yet you refuse.

The Mitzvot command you to keep the festivals and you choose not to.

The Mitzvot command you to not shave your beard, or to round the corners of your hair and you have told us you choose not to follow these rules.

You will not explain your rationale for ignoring the commands of your God to us, but you will to Him.

 

[halleyscomet]

Once again it is what is taught to a Gentile that is applicable—so focus on the commands as what is required to enter into the faith. Comet pursues a way that is offensive.

Fascinating. You find it offensive that I am testing your claims and asking for specifics.

I suppose Satan wold find it offensive that his false prophets are tested, fail the test and are held accountable for their numerous failures.

Pray tell, what is offensive in asking you about specific Mitzvot?

What you need to understand is that some commands are not in effect today as the Temple with its numerous laws are redundant.

So what? those aren't the laws I'm asking you about.

You keep yammering about laws bound by the borders of Israel or by a temple in Jerusalem. What do those criteria have to do with this law?

Ex. 21:15 — Not to strike your father and mother

Or this one?

Ex. 21:28 — Not to benefit from an ox condemned to be stoned

 

[halleyscomet]

But all of these laws are of no value where there is not a sanctified marriage as we will be living as it is in a world of adultery, like it was before the flood in the time of Noah.

Seriously?

That's seriously your excuse for not going into detail? You're seriously going to ignore the rest of the Mitzvot so you can wallow in your adultery obsession?

And you wonder why people have certain theories about your personal life.

So, no cherry picking—rather a serious approach.

Riiiiight.

Pull the other one, it has bells on.

 

[halleyscomet]

I'm going to just assume that Paul Bethke is going to obey and advocate obeying this one:

Ex. 21:28 — Not to benefit from an ox condemned to be stoned

Given his sex obsession, and the main reason an ox would be stoned to death would be because a human had sex with it, I'm going to be charitable and assume Paul Bethke would be as squicked by the idea of eating a violated ox as the rest of us would be.

(Shades of Asterion)

 

[abaddon]

No what is done is to take those commands that apply to the current situation into account.

Cherry-picking.

What you need to understand is that some commands are not in effect today as the Temple with its numerous laws are redundant.

Cherry-picking.

Jewish festivals are for Israel, but the majority of commands still have an application as to justice, and family unity.

Cherry-picking.

Now because the world we live in is not the same world that the Hebrews lived in when they came out of Egypt from slavery, we need to find a parallel context.

Cherry-picking and factually incorrect.

But as I emphasise the Ten Commands still have a cardinal application, these commands are a universal application, because they have an influence on all morality.

Cherry-picking.

Then there are the commands that explain the application of the Decalogue.
Then there are the laws that deal with the violation of the Decalogue.
So, the object is to impose laws that protect people from evil.
There are laws about hygiene.
There are laws about the safety of people.
There are laws with regards to animal welfare.

Cherry-picking and factually incorrect. FFS you god could have simply told people to wash their hands.

But all of these laws are of no value where there is not a sanctified marriage as we will be living as it is in a world of adultery, like it was before the flood in the time of Noah.

Cherry-picking. My neighbour has a three year old kid. Neither she, nor her partner were married, so no adultery has occurred. Neither she nor her partner have any relationship anymore. Nor were they ever married so divorce is no issue. By your rules, I should stone her to death.

So, no cherry picking—rather a serious approach.

You cherry-picked your entire reply.

What about Deu 18:20-22? What are we to do about that?

 

[Paul Bethke]

I'm going to just assume that Paul Bethke is going to obey and advocate obeying this one:



Given his sex obsession, and the main reason an ox would be stoned to death would be because a human had sex with it, I'm going to be charitable and assume Paul Bethke would be as squicked by the idea of eating a violated ox as the rest of us would be.

(Shades of Asterion)

What about this one---Leviticus 6:1 The LORD said to Moses:
Lev 6:2 "If anyone sins and is unfaithful to the LORD by deceiving his neighbour about something entrusted to him or left in his care or stolen, or if he cheats him,
Lev 6:3 or if he finds lost property and lies about it, or if he swears falsely, or if he commits any such sin that people may do—
Lev 6:4 when he thus sins and becomes guilty, he must return what he has stolen or taken by extortion, or what was entrusted to him, or the lost property he found,

This is practical and can be applied in this day.

 

[halleyscomet]

What about this one---Leviticus 6:1 The LORD said to Moses:
Lev 6:2 "If anyone sins and is unfaithful to the LORD by deceiving his neighbour about something entrusted to him or left in his care or stolen, or if he cheats him,
Lev 6:3 or if he finds lost property and lies about it, or if he swears falsely, or if he commits any such sin that people may do—
Lev 6:4 when he thus sins and becomes guilty, he must return what he has stolen or taken by extortion, or what was entrusted to him, or the lost property he found,

This is practical and can be applied in this day.

But do YOU follow them?

If you do I can list them as "Follows" in the spreadsheet. If you don't or refuse to answer, I'll have to list them as "Do as I say, don't do as I do."

 

[JayUtah]

But can you not understand that not all of the commands can be obeyed because of the present situation with the Temple...

We covered that.

...and because I am not a Jew living in Israel—so which commands are still valid for a Gentile convert to apply as to be accepted into the Covenant of Yahweh.

And here is where you admit you simply follow the cafeteria Christian approach. You cannot claim to be better obedient than other Christians if you subscribe to their same excuses for not obeying all the mitzvot.

So yes sexual immorality tops the sin in the world today. Adultery is destructive.

And here's where you try to make everything about sex.

You don't seem to realize that you accuse your critics of misunderstanding and misrepresenting you, but your own posts are the best evidence that your critics have it right. This is a serious problem in your argument.

 

[halleyscomet]

Cherry-picking.

Cherry-picking.

Cherry-picking.

Cherry-picking and factually incorrect.

Cherry-picking.

Cherry-picking and factually incorrect. FFS you god could have simply told people to wash their hands.

Cherry-picking. My neighbour has a three year old kid. Neither she, nor her partner were married, so no adultery has occurred. Neither she nor her partner have any relationship anymore. Nor were they ever married so divorce is no issue. By your rules, I should stone her to death.


You cherry-picked your entire reply.

What about Deu 18:20-22? What are we to do about that?

Be wary of the cherries a man obsessed with sex picks.

<==== Click to enlarge!

 

[Paul Bethke]

We covered that.
And here is where you admit you simply follow the cafeteria Christian approach. You cannot claim to be better obedient than other Christians if you subscribe to their same excuses for not obeying all the mitzvot.

Now once again you are wrong—it is the cafeteria Christian approach that does not follow the teachings of Christ with regards to a sanctified marriage, permitting divorced people to remarry.
I am saying that all commands are essential, and must be taught in order to understand the terms of the New Covenant, that replaces the Temple and the worship of Yahweh.
The death of Jesus as atonement replaces the Temple system—and what Paul taught is that the repentant sinner can now become the temple of God where his presence is manifest.
So, the need to travel to Jerusalem is no longer a prerequisite to meet with Yahweh.

And here's where you try to make everything about sex.
You don't seem to realize that you accuse your critics of misunderstanding and misrepresenting you, but your own posts are the best evidence that your critics have it right. This is a serious problem in your argument.

It is about adultery, and sexual immorality that is so prevalent today that will bring about the wrath of the Creator on humanity.

Now this is an excellent law--- Leviticus 5:1 "'If a person sins because he does not speak up when he hears a public charge to testify regarding something he has seen or learned about, he will be held responsible.

Now mildew was a common problem then, and in some cases still is present today, so now this law applies-- Leviticus_14:35 the owner of the house must go and tell the priest, 'I have seen something that looks like mildew in my house.'

So now there is the law how to deal with mildew—so what is the procedure today.
There is a parallel to every command, either for justice, hygiene, building, animals and farming.

So it is my critics who do not understand how to pair the laws of Torah with the laws that are present today.

Now in the squatter camps in South Africa, many of these laws must be taught because the people are still primitive as they have always been!

 

[abaddon]

Now once again you are wrong—it is the cafeteria Christian approach that does not follow the teachings of Christ with regards to a sanctified marriage, permitting divorced people to remarry.
I am saying that all commands are essential, and must be taught in order to understand the terms of the New Covenant, that replaces the Temple and the worship of Yahweh.
The death of Jesus as atonement replaces the Temple system—and what Paul taught is that the repentant sinner can now become the temple of God where his presence is manifest.
So, the need to travel to Jerusalem is no longer a prerequisite to meet with Yahweh.



It is about adultery, and sexual immorality that is so prevalent today that will bring about the wrath of the Creator on humanity.

Now this is an excellent law--- Leviticus 5:1 "'If a person sins because he does not speak up when he hears a public charge to testify regarding something he has seen or learned about, he will be held responsible.

Now mildew was a common problem then, and in some cases still is present today, so now this law applies-- Leviticus_14:35 the owner of the house must go and tell the priest, 'I have seen something that looks like mildew in my house.'

So now there is the law how to deal with mildew—so what is the procedure today.
There is a parallel to every command, either for justice, hygiene, building, animals and farming.

So it is my critics who do not understand how to pair the laws of Torah with the laws that are present today.

Now in the squatter camps in South Africa, many of these laws must be taught because the people are still primitive as they have always been!

Yeah, see, these days we have chemicals for that. Priests turned out to be useless at dealing with it. Your god seems to think that mildew causes plague and leprosy which is patently untrue. Bit of a dunce, your god.

 

[Zivan]

Please answer only yes or no, with no scripture dumps or irrelevant discussion.

Once again it is what is taught to a Gentile that is applicable—so focus on the commands as what is required to enter into the faith. Comet pursues a way that is offensive.

It is what I will teach people in order for them to be accepted into the faith—and it is what commands will be instituted when the Kingdom of Yahweh is established, and it is what prophesies will be used to establish the Kingdom of God.

So the Ten Commands will be the initial structure of commands to identify a person’s consideration to be accepted. Adultery will be the primary consideration.

So the scores of other commands will be considered in the establishment of the Kingdom of God.
Many nations have rejected the death penalty for murder, rape and kidnapping, so this will be established as the way to deal with this type of crime.

So it is not what Christianity accepts that the Torah is abolished in total, and replaced with grace.
An important consideration is that many commands are part of the basis of law in many nations.

So when a more intelligent discussion can take place along the lines of what is applicable, then there is no purpose in proceeding.

The Jewish festivals cannot be practices by other nations as there are different time zones, but the Sabbath being of major importance can be put into effect, but will cause major complications, due to time zones.

Now my focus is in South Africa, and how many laws can be instituted. So using the commands I can separate the good from the evil. Using the Dutch Reformed Church as an example of what the true Church should be like, will be an example for all Churches to follow.

So yes every command has an application, and a means for understanding the truth, because it is only in truth that the Creator can be worshipped.

So, I am not going to be cornered into following Comets method.

I am well aware of the outcome in preaching the demands of the faith and what consequences will follow—but if these sins are not curtailed now, then the result will be catastrophic. Even now the sin in the world is disastrous.

So yes sexual immorality tops the sin in the world today. Adultery is destructive.

Proverbs_6:32 But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself.

So here is another prophetic statement that will apply in time to come. Isaiah_60:12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish; it will be utterly ruined.

@PB,


What part of, "Please answer only yes or no", is unclear to you?