Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

[abaddon]

Oh dear if there was no Moses then we are certainly doomed to uncertainty---BUT wait there is hope as the uncertain Book of Moses states--Deut_18:18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

So now we must wait to SEE if this will happen—what say ye??

I say you ignore Deu 18:20-22.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Yes, that's the purpose of the thread. Please cooperate.
That's what we're doing. You refuse to cooperate. Halleyscomet has made a list of all 613 mitzvot and is attempting to discuss each one in turn. But every time you get stuck talking about one you obviously don't understand, you fall back to the Ten Commandments and say that's all you need to know. We suspect you're doing this because you don't want to admit that your claim to perfectly obey all the mitzvot was hasty and you can't support it. So when faced with a mitzvah you haven't really thought about, you want to change horses and say that your "perfect" adherence to the much-simpler Ten Commandments satisfies your claim.

What I am showing is that there are laws that cannot be put into practice, that does not mean that I and others are not obedient to the faith, which is the keeping of Torah.
I can read and understand what I am reading with regards to commands that were given. The object today is to see which laws can be put into practice not to see which laws can be ignored as redundant. I do not have to bring a lamb as an offering—furthermore I do not present a basket to the priest

You don't get to lower the bar just because you discovered you can't clear it. You're claiming a very tall level of compliance, one that literally sets you apart from all other believers on the planet. You don't get to compromise on compliance and keep the purported lofty standard. That's just a delusion of grandeur.
Now that you've confirmed that Hallyscomet's plan is the one you endorse, I expect a whole lot more cooperation out of you. Will I get it?

What must be understood as a believer in Jesus Christ as the Jewish Messiah, there are laws that must be adhered to, primarily they are the Ten Commands as listed in Exodus 20.

The pivotal law is not to commit adultery. But what is adultery other than what the Creator decreed as marriage, as laid out in Genesis 2:24, this Jesus referred to as what the Creator decreed.

Just because the world does not agree with this stipulation does not mean that the original decree is nullified.

It still remains as Jesus confirmed— Luke 16:18 Every man who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and a man who marries a woman divorced by her husband commits adultery.


Now regarding the other laws contained in the Torah, the Pentateuch, the first five Books of Moses as they are referred to. When the Hebrews came out of Egypt the place of their captivity they were presented with the Decalogue the Ten Commands. Which God spoke to them from mount Sinai, and thereafter inscribed them on the two stone tablets which Moses provided.

Other laws pertaining to a holistic relationship with each other as neighbours were introduced to facilitate harmony among families and peoples were taught.

Laws were given to protect the Hebrews against the practices that the nations they would encounter. These practices were the reason that Yahweh was sending in the Hebrews into the land to eliminate the people who had so debased themselves to animal status.

The same can be said of the Europeans that came to Africa, they would encounter people who had no knowledge of the Creator and as such indulged in detestable practices that the Creator abhorred.

So, what must be appreciated and understood is that many laws that were given to Israel can be applied to society today, other laws pertain to Israel and the Jews only.

So a list can be compiled to examine these laws in the light of application. The Jews have a very complicated way of living, some customs and some practices outside of the precepts of Torah.

So the Torah will be the means by which nations are judged, so the Torah is as stated the wisdom of God.
So which laws apply as a whole to all nations and which laws apply to Israel as a nation.

Deut 26:8 So the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, with great terror and with miraculous signs and wonders.
Deut 26:9 He brought us to this place and gave us this land, a land flowing with milk and honey;
Deut 26:10 and now I bring the firstfruits of the soil that you, O LORD, have given me." Place the basket before the LORD your God and bow down before him.

This applies to Israel, when they enter into the land God has designated as theirs and the Temple is built.

Deu 26:1 When you have entered the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance and have taken possession of it and settled in it,
Deu 26:2 take some of the firstfruits of all that you produce from the soil of the land the LORD your God is giving you and put them in a basket. Then go to the place the LORD your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name

So now there is no Temple—so each law must be evaluated in order to ascertain a purpose.

But you know all this so why the show of ignorance?

 

[halleyscomet]

Deu 31:19 "Now write down for yourselves this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them.

BUT this was the song Moses was to teach Israel, not for each person to write down, as they would not have the means, nor could many write.

BUT this is what is required for a king to do, which I have done with ink and paper—
Deu 17:18 When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the priests, who are Levites.
Deu 17:19 It is to be with him, and he is to read it all the days of his life so that he may learn to revere the LORD his God and follow carefully all the words of this law and these decrees
Deu 17:20 and not consider himself better than his brothers and turn from the law to the right or to the left. Then he and his descendants will reign a long time over his kingdom in Israel.

It is known, that when you write down things you are prone to remember them—so I remember all the laws and decrees, precepts, and commands, and I meditate on them all the time, as I compare the world at large according to what is recorded.

Psalm_111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.
Psalm_119:4 You have laid down precepts that are to be fully obeyed.
Psalm_119:15 I meditate on your precepts and consider your ways.

Psalm_119:63 I am a friend to all who fear you, to all who follow your precepts.

I'll take that as a "No." if you so much as intended to try and follow it you wouldn't feel the need to engage in such shoddy and transparent evasion.

 

[Paul Bethke]

I say you ignore Deu 18:20-22.

No I have not ignored what is written for all to SEE--the point I was making is that the LORD will raise up another like Moses, so all is not lost.

 

[halleyscomet]

There was a radical - the Romans thought him a petty rabble-rouser - some few centuries ago who stated not one jot or tittle was to be taken from the law. "Advanced practices...." Pfffttt!! And that final sentence is both a grammatical mess and semantically void.

I took it as a concession on his part that examining the law beyond his preferred list of Ten Commandments was over his head. Remember, he's conceded he needs to learn more before he tries to make another "blind the skeptic" prophesy. Clearly he doesn't feel ready to actually go through the laws one by one. He's just to prideful and puffed up to admit it more explicitly.

 

[Paul Bethke]

I'll take that as a "No." if you so much as intended to try and follow it you wouldn't feel the need to engage in such shoddy and transparent evasion.

What you miss is that all applicable laws are still in effect, and they can be applied, such as:--
Lev 19:35 "'Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity.
Lev 19:28 "'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.
Lev 19:26 "'Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it. "'Do not practice divination or sorcery.


These apply to Israel: --
Lev 19:23 "'When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden. For three years you are to consider it forbidden; it must not be eaten.
Lev 19:24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD.
Lev 19:25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.

So now when a person goes through the laws, it can be easily seen which laws have an application and which laws are not applicable.

But those laws that are applicable will be used to judge the nations, but Israel cannot be judged for laws pertaining to the Temple, but then Israel cannot be forgiven for the sins committed as they reject the Torah and the subsequent method introduced for atonement.

So must I still go to Jerusalem in order to worship the Creator as in days gone by—or is there another way in which a person can worship the Creator. The commands are specifically there to make a person holy in order that that person can worship the Creator.

So, which commands can be applied for today in order to worship the Creator—man cannot make his own laws it is the Creator who sets out the terms?

So in times past God overlooked mans ignorance—but now he commands all people to repent.
Acts_17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

So, laws must be set up to inform people what is required for them to repent. This is where the Torah becomes the criterion.

So I am not opposed to the laws in the Torah as you claim, but rather am in contention with what commands can still be applied.

 

[halleyscomet]

What you miss is that all applicable laws are still in effect, and they can be applied, such as:--
Lev 19:35 "'Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity.
Lev 19:28 "'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.
Lev 19:26 "'Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it. "'Do not practice divination or sorcery.


These apply to Israel: --
Lev 19:23 "'When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden. For three years you are to consider it forbidden; it must not be eaten.
Lev 19:24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD.
Lev 19:25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.

So now when a person goes through the laws, it can be easily seen which laws have an application and which laws are not applicable.

But those laws that are applicable will be used to judge the nations, but Israel cannot be judged for laws pertaining to the Temple, but then Israel cannot be forgiven for the sins committed as they reject the Torah and the subsequent method introduced for atonement.

So must I still go to Jerusalem in order to worship the Creator as in days gone by—or is there another way in which a person can worship the Creator. The commands are specifically there to make a person holy in order that that person can worship the Creator.

So, which commands can be applied for today in order to worship the Creator—man cannot make his own laws it is the Creator who sets out the terms?

So in times past God overlooked mans ignorance—but now he commands all people to repent.
Acts_17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

So, laws must be set up to inform people what is required for them to repent. This is where the Torah becomes the criterion.

So I am not opposed to the laws in the Torah as you claim, but rather am in contention with what commands can still be applied.

None of that answers the question of if you've written a Torah scroll. It'll be useful when we get to those Mitzvot, but it still doesn't answer the question I actually asked.

 

[Zivan]

None of that answers the question of if you've written a Torah scroll. It'll be useful when we get to those Mitzvot, but it still doesn't answer the question I actually asked.

He is claiming, bizzarely, to have written a Torah scroll:

BUT this is what is required for a king to do, which I have done with ink and paper—Deu 17:18 When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the priests, who are Levites.

He is of course using a crappy translation. Again.

The word in his translation, translated as "law" is actually the word "torah" (which means "teaching/instruction", not "law").

The torah includes the laws, but PB has not learned that.

So he is lying, AGAIN, by saying he has written a torah scroll.

 

[Jodie]

Now which laws still apply and which laws have been replaced with an advanced practice—
Leviticus 18 still applies as it describes the types of sexual sin--Lev 18:26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled.

That's talking about mixing with Neanderthals.

As does--Lev 19:19 "'Keep my decrees. "'Do not mate different kinds of animals. "'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. "'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

Most of the time you end up with mutations that are not conducive to survival but I'm not certain what the thought is behind not wearing a linen/wool mix.

Lev 19:23 "'When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden. For three years you are to consider it forbidden; it must not be eaten.

If you allow a newly planted tree to fruit it will put more energy into that instead of growing a secure root system and stronger trunk/branches that will support larger harvests in later years. It sounds like something someone figured out in antiquity when we begin moving from being hunter/gatherers towards being an agricultural based society.

Lev 19:35 "'Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity.

Ok, that seems self explanatory.

Lev 19:25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.

Well there you have it.

Lev 19:28 "'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

Infection and disease precaution.

One can go on and on—all laws have relevance to life---there is no law that should be rejected, but all laws must be considered in their application.

So one must take each law and evaluate it in accordance with laws already accepted by society.

I think of them as guidelines not related to anything particularly spiritual.

This laws still has relevance and apply.
Lev 19:31 "'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.

How do you know that someone who claims to channel God's word isn't mistaken? How do you differentiate that with texts that are thousands of years old that were handed down thousands of years before that by word of mouth versus those that claim to speak for God today?

Deu 18:9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there.
Deu 18:10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,
Deu 18:11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.
Deu 18:12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.

He gave his own son in sacrifice supposedly for our salvation, how do you reconcile this?

Deu 19:15 One witness is not enough to convict a man accused of any crime or offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

And what if they all lie?

Deu 19:16 If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse a man of a crime,
Deu 19:17 the two men involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the LORD before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time.
Deu 19:18 The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against his brother,
Deu 19:19 then do to him as he intended to do to his brother. You must purge the evil from among you.

Ok, no issue with that.

So you SEE there are many laws that can be imposed—and there are some laws that apply ONLY to those living in Israel.

Which ones are only imposed in Israel?

BUT again, each law must be scrutinized---BUT again the Ten Commands are the first laws to be applied to determine a person status before the Creator.

It's still not left up to an imperfect human to judge another man or womans' spiritual state.

Abortion is similar to what the nations were doing to their unwanted babies--Deut_12:31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

I don't think there is a comparison between abortion to human sacrifice.

So it is these detestable practices that provoke the Creator to anger as it is today.

How do you know the creator is angry?

 

[Beady]

How do you know the creator is angry?

He shouldn't be. Everything is unfolding according to His divine plan (patent pending).



This signature is intended to irritate people.

 

[Jodie]

Deu 31:19 "Now write down for yourselves this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them.

BUT this was the song Moses was to teach Israel, not for each person to write down, as they would not have the means, nor could many write.

BUT this is what is required for a king to do, which I have done with ink and paper—
Deu 17:18 When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the priests, who are Levites.
Deu 17:19 It is to be with him, and he is to read it all the days of his life so that he may learn to revere the LORD his God and follow carefully all the words of this law and these decrees
Deu 17:20 and not consider himself better than his brothers and turn from the law to the right or to the left. Then he and his descendants will reign a long time over his kingdom in Israel.

I guess that didn't come to pass.

It is known, that when you write down things you are prone to remember them—so I remember all the laws and decrees, precepts, and commands, and I meditate on them all the time, as I compare the world at large according to what is recorded.

Psalm_111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.
Psalm_119:4 You have laid down precepts that are to be fully obeyed.
Psalm_119:15 I meditate on your precepts and consider your ways.

I don't see that this applies to you personally. As best I can tell from what you've posted here you haven't done enough meditation or asked for discernment.

Psalm_119:63 I am a friend to all who fear you, to all who follow your precepts.

"Fear" comes from the Hebrew word "yirah" which has a multitude of meanings depending on contextual use. It can mean awe, wonder, admiration, astonishment, gratitude, amazement, etc......I don't think you're reading these scriptures in the right context.

 

[Jodie]

Oh dear if there was no Moses then we are certainly doomed to uncertainty---BUT wait there is hope as the uncertain Book of Moses states--Deut_18:18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

So now we must wait to SEE if this will happen—what say ye??

I say that if it doesn't jive with your preconceived notions of what the prophet should say that you will reject him.

 

[Border Reiver]

What must be understood as a believer in Jesus Christ as the Jewish Messiah, there are laws that must be adhered to, primarily they are the Ten Commands as listed in Exodus 20.



<snip>

Now regarding the other laws contained in the Torah, the Pentateuch, the first five Books of Moses as they are referred to. When the Hebrews came out of Egypt the place of their captivity they were presented with the Decalogue the Ten Commands. Which God spoke to them from mount Sinai, and thereafter inscribed them on the two stone tablets which Moses provided.

Exodus 20 does not contain the words of the Covenant which is what Moses inscribed on the tablets - Exodus 34 does. Meaning that while the "no sex on the side" rule is not part of the Covenant between Yahweh and the people of Israel. It is not part of the Ten Commandments.

 

[JayUtah]

What I am showing is that there are laws that cannot be put into practice...

We covered those. We're particularly interested in the other ones you can keep, but choose not to. As we discussed previously, when we add up all your various excuses for not having to keep the mitzvot, we discover you don't have any better record than any of the other so-called cafeteria Christians.

What must be understood as a believer in Jesus Christ as the Jewish Messiah, there are laws that must be adhered to, primarily they are the Ten Commands...

No, do not simply fall back to the Ten Commandments. There are 613 distinct mitzvot. We are attempting to take each in turn. Do not derail that by retreating back to familiar territory.

The pivotal law is not to commit adultery.

No. That is just your ongoing obsession that you're trying to read into the scripture. We're trying to discuss the 613 mitzvot, since you dictated -- and we agree -- that each must be taken in turn. Do not try to make everything about adultery.

So, what must be appreciated and understood...

Yes, yes, we understand. This is the same laundry list of excuses that all cafeteria Christians give for disregarding most of the mitzvot.. But since you say you're above all that, and don't fall into their errors, we expect different from you.

But you know all this so why the show of ignorance?

People are not "ignorant" just because they dispute you. Repeatedly calling your critics ignorant when all they do is demonstrate your errors is what gets you suspended.

 

[Peregrinus]

...the LORD will raise up another like Moses, so all is not lost.

This is the old, tired "just you wait" with different costume. Empty.

 

[abaddon]

No I have not ignored what is written for all to SEE--the point I was making is that the LORD will raise up another like Moses, so all is not lost.

So you agree that prophets who fail should be put to death?

 

[Paul Bethke]

We covered those. We're particularly interested in the other ones you can keep, but choose not to. As we discussed previously, when we add up all your various excuses for not having to keep the mitzvot, we discover you don't have any better record than any of the other so-called cafeteria Christians.
No, do not simply fall back to the Ten Commandments. There are 613 distinct mitzvot. We are attempting to take each in turn. Do not derail that by retreating back to familiar territory.
No. That is just your ongoing obsession that you're trying to read into the scripture. We're trying to discuss the 613 mitzvot, since you dictated -- and we agree -- that each must be taken in turn. Do not try to make everything about adultery.
Yes, yes, we understand. This is the same laundry list of excuses that all cafeteria Christians give for disregarding most of the mitzvot.. But since you say you're above all that, and don't fall into their errors, we expect different from you.
People are not "ignorant" just because they dispute you. Repeatedly calling your critics ignorant when all they do is demonstrate your errors is what gets you suspended.

There are many commands that are applicable, especially the Ten Commands which you do not SEE as the most important of all.

No when it states that manna must not be collected on the Sabbath, this command no longer can be applied, but it does not mean that the Sabbath law is now no longer applicable.

So if you and others want to go through all the laws to SEE which are still applicable then go ahead, I am sure many will find this interesting.

What about these, they are prophetic---Leviticus 18:19 "'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.

Then there is this one---Leviticus_19:29 "'Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

1Corinthians_6:16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."

Exodus 21:1 "These are the laws you are to set before them:
Exo 21:12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death.
Exo 21:33 "If a man uncovers a pit or digs one and fails to cover it and an ox or a donkey falls into it,
Exo 22:19 "Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death.
Exo 22:22 "Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan.

So all these laws were given to Israel, with the command---Deut 6:25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness."

No Sir I am like David who said---
Psa 119:1 Aleph. Blessed are they whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the LORD.
Psa 119:2 Blessed are they who keep his statutes and seek him with all their heart.
Psa 119:3 They do nothing wrong; they walk in his ways.
Psa 119:4 You have laid down precepts that are to be fully obeyed.
Psa 119:5 Oh, that my ways were steadfast in obeying your decrees!
Psa 119:6 Then I would not be put to shame when I consider all your commands.
Psa 119:7 I will praise you with an upright heart as I learn your righteous laws.


So the task is to seek out those laws that can be obeyed.

 

[halleyscomet]

So the task is to seek out those laws that can be obeyed.

You're doing a rather piss-poor job on that score.

We can put you down as a "does not follow" for writing a Torrance scroll.

For the record, I'm pretty close to having completed that one. The first time I read the Bible cover to cover was when I was 11 and I kept copious notes, including the text of the verses I read. I say I'm "close" because I didn't copy out most the genealogies of numbers.

Next up:

Ex. 21:15 — Not to strike your father and mother

Ex. 21:17 — Not to curse your father and mother

Well Paul Bethke, do you obey THOSE Mitzvot?

 

[Paul Bethke]

You're doing a rather piss-poor job on that score.

We can put you down as a "does not follow" for writing a Torrance scroll.

For the record, I'm pretty close to having completed that one. The first time I read the Bible cover to cover was when I was 11 and I kept copious notes, including the text of the verses I read. I say I'm "close" because I didn't copy out most the genealogies of numbers.

Next up:
Well Paul Bethke, do you obey THOSE Mitzvot?

These are still valid laws and must be taught as it appears in the Decalogue.
Exodus 20:12 "Honour your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

This is the structure of the family, to honour our parents, even in this time where parents are less than honourable.

It is difficult to honour parents who dishonour the laws of the Creator, where marriage is concerned.
There is so much sexual immorality practiced by parents. So, children must be taught not to follow the ungodly practices of some parents.

This is where the teachings of the Torah are essential in society.
So, let us focus on the laws, and what is applicable.

 

[halleyscomet]

These are still valid laws and must be taught as it appears in the Decalogue.

Exodus 20:12 "Honour your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.



This is the structure of the family, to honour our parents, even in this time where parents are less than honourable.



It is difficult to honour parents who dishonour the laws of the Creator, where marriage is concerned.

There is so much sexual immorality practiced by parents. So, children must be taught not to follow the ungodly practices of some parents.



This is where the teachings of the Torah are essential in society.

So, let us focus on the laws, and what is applicable.

I figured your parents wouldn't meet your purity criteria. So we know you don't honor them. They're also going to be cursed by the same vows of impending damnation you've given for all of us, so we know where you stand on those points.

Do you beat your parents? You still haven't answered that one.