Okay, I'm about ready to declare victory...

Zim moved out the week of the attack.

September 6, 2001

htt p://ww w.bible-light. c om/JPM/2001-10. h tm
That's weird. I thought the attack was on September 11th. ZIM's lease was up on the first. They had moved to Virginia, a move that was planned, of course, for months. A few employees remained behind with computer equipment and were in the north tower when it was hit. ZIM's operations were down for a time because of that. Where did I get this information? 911myths.com, where I asked you to go. Why didn't you? Here's the direct link: http://www.911myths.com/html/zim_shipping.html

911myths raises another good point, which is that at least one other Israeli company didn't get the "warning."

We get it, David. You don't like Jews. Stop making things up about them.
 
I am not a mod, just a Forum member making a request (you notice the please). Personally your attitude is juvenile and typical of teh CTers who come here, which is why everyone is finding your comments so droll and boring. On a personal note, I am ASKING you to please keep your sarcasm to yourself, or atleast do not direct it at me PLEASE!!

I am not a mod.

TAM

The OCTers are the juvenile ones,chum.

But let's move the discussion forward.

The first DOCTORED photo of the USS Liberty's transparent mast is included in the 1982 IDF History Report.

The
second DOCTORED photo was provided by the IDF to Cristol(p. 79 ..The Liberty Incident) and Thames Television.



Let's just establish that the USS Liberty was dusted off from "operation:northwoods" by the JCS who all thought it was a good idea...

..and modified for an attack in the Eastern Med.


So our government WOULD cover up the murder of 34 American soldiers...


Against that backdrop... we can proceed to a discussion of 9/11...

...first topic is how that TLA Award winner that juvenile-ly ridicules the CTers...

..has now had its foundational thesis annihilated.


The CTers have legitimate questions/complaints....

..and when the US Government seizes and destroys evidence, IT CAN'T be marginalized by saying "you CTers are just a bunch of kooks"

Operation: Northwoods and the USS Liberty immediately return to play when that "crackpot" motif is advanced....

advanced by who????


...by a forum of people who claim to be "debunkerzzzzzz"
 
That's weird. I thought the attack was on September 11th. ZIM's lease was up on the first. They had moved to Virginia, a move that was planned, of course, for months. A few employees remained behind with computer equipment and were in the north tower when it was hit. ZIM's operations were down for a time because of that. Where did I get this information? 911myths.com, where I asked you to go. Why didn't you? Here's the direct link: http://www.911myths.com/html/zim_shipping.html

911myths raises another good point, which is that at least one other Israeli company didn't get the "warning."

We get it, David. You don't like Jews. Stop making things up about them.


No... I don't like criminals.

I distinguish a criminal political movement like "Zionism" from Judaism

....just as I would a criminal movement like the Mafioso and not blame Italians.

But you stated those photos were NOT doctored?

...and you're a "debunker"????
 
No... I don't like criminals.

I distinguish a criminal political movement like "Zionism" from Judaism
Horsecrap. You just named several Israeli companies and individuals as if they had foreknowledge of the attacks. There is zero evidence to support your claims. You don't like Jews. Be a man and face your prejudice.
 
They were MOSSAD Agents.

The pro-Zionist FORWARD published it...



The hyperlink is now broken....


http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/israelis_9-11.html






so it all comes down to whether this is a true reproduction of the article...





By MARC PERELMAN
FORWARD STAFF

Despite angry denials by Israel and its American supporters, reports that Israel was conducting spying activities in the United States may have a grain of truth, the Forward has learned.

However, far from pointing to Israeli spying against U.S. government and military facilities, as reported in Europe last week, the incidents in question appear to represent a case of Israelis in the United States spying on a common enemy, radical Islamic networks suspected of links to Middle East terrorism.

In particular, a group of five Israelis arrested in New Jersey shortly after the September 11 attacks and held for more than two months was subjected to an unusual number of polygraph tests and interrogated by a series of government agencies including the FBI's counterintelligence division, which by some reports remains convinced that Israel was conducting an intelligence operation. The five
Israelis worked for a moving company with few discernable assets that closed up shop immediately afterward and whose owner fled to Israel.

Other allegations involved Israelis claiming to be art students who had backgrounds in signal interception and ordnance. (See related story, Page 8.)

Sources emphasized that the release of all the Israelis under investigation indicates that they were cleared of any suspicion that they had prior knowledge of the September 11 attacks, as some anti-Israel media outlets have suggested.

The resulting tensions between Washington and Jerusalem, sources told the Forward, arose not because of the operations' targets but because Israel reportedly violated a secret gentlemen's agreement between the two countries under which espionage on each other's soil is
to be coordinated in advance.

Most experts and former officials interviewed for this article said that such so-called unilateral or uncoordinated Israeli monitoring of radical Muslims in America would not be surprising.

In fact, they said, Israeli intelligence played a key role in helping the Bush administration to crack down on Islamic charities suspected of funneling money to terrorist groups, most notably the Richardson, Texas-based Holy Land Foundation last December.

"I have no doubt Israel has an interest in spying on those groups," said Peter Unsinger, an intelligence expert who teaches justice administration at San Jose University. "The Israelis give us good stuff, like on the Hamas charities."

According to one former high-ranking American intelligence official, who asked not to be named, the FBI came to the conclusion at the end of its investigation that the five Israelis arrested in New Jersey last September were conducting a Mossad surveillance mission and that their employer, Urban Moving Systems of Weehawken, N.J., served as a front.

After their arrest, the men were held in detention for two-and-a-half months and were deported at the end of November, officially for visa violations.

However, a counterintelligence investigation by the FBI concluded that at least two of them were in fact Mossad operatives, according to the former American official, who said he was regularly briefed on the investigation by two separate law enforcement officials.

"The assessment was that Urban Moving Systems was a front for the Mossad and operatives employed by it," he said. "The conclusion of the FBI was that they were spying on local Arabs but that they could leave because they did not know anything about 9/11."

However, he added, the bureau was "very irritated because it was a case of so-called unilateral espionage, meaning they didn't know about it."

Spokesmen for the FBI, the Justice Department and the Immigration and Naturalization Service refused to discuss the case. Israeli officials flatly dismissed the allegations as untrue.

However, the former American official said that after American authorities confronted Jerusalem on the issue at the end of last year, the Israeli government acknowledged the operation and apologized for not coordinating it with Washington.

The five men — Sivan and Paul Kurzberg, Oded Ellner, Omer Marmari and Yaron Shmuel — were arrested eight hours after the attacks by the Bergen County, N.J., police while driving in an Urban Moving Systems van. The police acted on an FBI alert after the men allegedly were seen acting strangely while watching the events from the roof of their warehouse and the roof of their van.

In addition to their strange behavior and their Middle Eastern looks, the suspicions were compounded when a box cutter and $4,000 in cash were found in the van. Moreover, one man carried two passports and another had fresh pictures of the men standing with the smoldering wreckage of the World Trade Center in the background.

The Bergen County police immediately handed the suspects to the INS, which turned them over to a joint police-FBI terrorism task force set up after September 11 to deal with all possible links with the attacks.

The five Israelis were detained in the high-security Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn in solitary confinement until mid-October.

On September 25, they all signed papers acknowledging violations of Uimmigration law. At the end of October, the INS issued a deportation order which was enforced a month later after a review by the Justice Department and prodding by Jewish and Israeli officials.

However, the former official said, this is just the official story.

In fact, he said, the nature of the investigation changed after the names of two of the five Israelis showed up on a CIA-FBI database of foreign intelligence operatives, he said. At that point, he said, the bureau took control of the investigation and launched a Foreign Counterintelligence Investigation, or FCI.

FBI investigations into possible links to the September 11 attacks are usually carried by the bureau's counterterrorism division, not its counterintelligence division.

"An FCI means not only that it was serious but also that it was handled at a very high level and very tightly," the former official said. That view was echoed by several former FBI officials interviewed.
Steven Gordon, an American lawyer hired by the families to help secure their release, said he could not confirm which FBI division was in charge of the investigation. However, he acknowledged that "there were a lot of people involved, including counterintelligence officials from the FBI."

The men all underwent at least two polygraph tests each, the lawyer added. He said one of the Israelis took the test seven times, a very unusual total according to several polygraph experts interviewed by the Forward.

After the men were arrested, FBI agents searched the warehouse of Urban Moving Systems in Weehawken, N.J., seizing computer hard drives and documents. The warehouse was closed on September 14, said Ron George, a spokesman for the New Jersey State Division of Consumer Affairs.

On December 7, a New Jersey judge ruled that the state could seize the goods remaining inside the warehouse. The state also has a lawsuit pending against Urban Moving Systems and its owner, Dominik Otto Suter, an Israeli citizen.

The FBI questioned Mr. Suter once. However, he left the country afterward and went back to Israel before further questioning. Mr. Suter declined through his lawyer to be interviewed for this article.
Earlier this year, the New York State Department of Transportation revoked Urban Moving System's license after discovering that the company's midtown Manhattan base was only a mailing address.

After they returned to Israel at the end of November, the five men told local media that they were kept in solitary confinement, beaten, deprived of food and questioned while blindfolded and in their underwear.

Mr. Ellner, one of the five Israelis, said on two occasions in recent weeks that the five men had decided not to grant any interviews right now "because we went through a very difficult period and we are not ready for this."

Their Israeli lawyer, Ram Horwitz, told the Forward he was still waiting for the results of the medical tests undertaken by the men in Israel to make a decision on an eventual lawsuit in the United States for mistreatment.

Mr. Horwitz insisted the men were not intelligence officers.

Irit Stoffer, an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, said the allegations were "completely untrue" and that there were "only visa violations."

"The FBI investigated those cases because of 9/11," Ms. Stoffer said.

Charlene Eban, a spokeswoman for the FBI in Washington, and Don Nelson, a Justice Department spokesman, said they had no knowledge of an Israeli spying operation.

"If we found evidence of unauthorized intelligence operations, that would be classified material," added Jim Margolin, a spokesman for the FBI in New York.

One leading expert in American intelligence operations, Chip Berlet, a senior analyst at the Boston-based Political Research Associates, explained that there "is a backdoor agreement between allies that says that if one of your spies gets caught and didn't do too much harm, he goes home. It goes on all the time. The official reason is always a visa violation."
 
Horsecrap. You just named several Israeli companies and individuals as if they had foreknowledge of the attacks. There is zero evidence to support your claims. You don't like Jews. Be a man and face your prejudice.


Manhood has NOTHING to do with it.

I could just as easily say you be a man and admit those 2 photos were doctored by the Government of Israel.


You should be able to point the readership to where the portion of the wheelhouse/superstructure is obscured by the mast....


...but let's repeat...are those 2 photos doctored?

Then point out what the tugboat shape is in the first photo AND where the mast is in the second photo.

speak, debunker... speak
 
Whatreally(didnot)happened.com isn't a credible website. Please cite using credible resources, like a FBI document or CIA report stating they were agents.

IF you have to resort to using conspiracy sites as your only means of proof, you should stop now.
 
They were MOSSAD Agents.

The pro-Zionist FORWARD published it...
No, you don't know that. Neither did the author of the Forward article.
Despite angry denials by Israel and its American supporters, reports that Israel was conducting spying activities in the United States may have a grain of truth, the Forward has learned.

However, far from pointing to Israeli spying against U.S. government and military facilities, as reported in Europe last week, the incidents in question appear to represent a case of Israelis in the United States spying on a common enemy, radical Islamic networks suspected of links to Middle East terrorism.
As I've said several times in this forum, I wouldn't be surprised if those men were spies, except that for some reason they made themselves quite noticeable...just like the Israeli "art students." Okay, Mossad hires cut-rate spies. I can accept that. What we don't have is PROOF. And what we especially don't have is proof of foreknowledge.

Sources also said that even if the men were spies, there is no evidence to conclude they had advance knowledge of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11. The investigation, at the end of the day, after all the polygraphs, all of the field work, all the cross-checking, the intelligence work, concluded that they probably did not have advance knowledge of 9/11," [former CIA counterterrorism chief] Cannistraro noted.
 
Whatreally(didnot)happened.com isn't a credible website. Please cite using credible resources, like a FBI document or CIA report stating they were agents.

IF you have to resort to using conspiracy sites as your only means of proof, you should stop now.


the seminal issue is whether that article is a true reproduction of what appeared in The Forward which WRH hyperlinked to.

I do not trust WRH....

I do not trust Alex Jones or "Terrorstorm"(too many unvetted claims that did NOT pan out)

I love my government; but I won't pretend I don't know what they're attempting to do in my name...

I hate no individual nor groups of people....

I saw the article in The Forward myself....



Now... did the government of israel doctor 2 photos to explain away the murder of 34 Americans?

None of you debunkerrrzzzz has answered thatn yet... yes, the WTC attacks were known about months ahead of time.


We have Zim and Odigo AGAINST Clear Forest staying.

I'm interested in vetting everything.. I want the truth... I avoid no topics

So.... to deal with UK_Dave's TLA award-winning post and annihilate the ridicule of the news media/democrat/republican collusion....

Did Israel doctor 2 photos to explain away the murder of 34 American soldiers?
 
2)the "Operation:Northwoods" documents stating the Joint Chiefs of Staff UNANIMOUSLY signed off on the idea of terror attacks against US cities in a "false flag" ops
Wikipedia said:
The document was presented by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13 with one paragraph approved, as a preliminary submission for planning purposes.

[...]

# Destroying an unmanned drone masquerading as a commercial aircraft supposedly full of "college students off on a holiday". This proposal was the one supported by the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
 

My apologies, old sport.

Are the US(CIA Director, Stansfeld Turner) and GOI(182 IDF History Report; GOI spokesman, Mark Regv) and US news media(ABC 20/20) saying "mistaken identity" or "intentional attack" on what they knew to be Americans(CIA Director Richard Helms p.300/301)

When Helms's memoirs appeared...the evidence the US and GOI allowed to be released began to be poured over...


These 2 doctored photos surfaced

The IDF Ground controller transcripts have been doctored

The Us Government and Israel are stating "mistaken identity"

As stated by another, "Innocent people don't need to doctor evidence(in this case...multiple times)"

Coverup
 
This is a thread about 9/11. Please use your active USS Liberty thread to discuss this topic.

The USS Liberty murders annihilates the foundational thesis/motif of UK_Dave's TLA Award-Winning post;to wit,....

...that it is crackpot to believe the Democrats/Republicans and News Media would ALL conspire to cover up the murder of Americans.


False Flag Ops are not easy to bust when the Governments in charge of investigating/preserving evidence ARE THEMSELVES the perpetrators...

The US Government has engaged in "intellectual dishonesty" on the USS Liberty as late as 5/15/2006(DoD War Crimes Complaint denial)

In light of UK_Dave's posting....the USS Liberty attack should be thrown in your face till you all admit the US Government would help cover up the murder of its own citizens.


So...

1)were those 2 photos doctored by the GOI?...

2)...and what necessitated Greening advancing an "intelligent thermite" thesis in the first place?


speak, debunkers...speak
 
No. How would "doctoring" gun camera footage that they admit was of an attack on the ship in question "explain away" anything?


used in support of the "mistaken identity" thesis...

...innocent people don't need to doctor evidence... the 2 doctored photos were evidence that was used to buttress a "mistaken identity" thesis...


...as was the doctored IDF ground Controller transcripts(4 lies)....

...and the fantasy munition(30mm cannon shell with proximity fusing)


Why did Greening feel the advancement of the "intelligent thermite" thesis was necessitated?
 
David, take it back to your own thread. Thanks much.

the rationale for it being included in this thread has specifically pointed out a couple of times now...


...it annihilates the foundational thesis of UK_Dave's TLA Award-Winning post ridiculing the CTers.


The instant we come to the consensus that the Democrats/Republicans/News Media would cover up the murder of 34 American soldiers...

...we can return to the topic of "why greening felt it necessary to advance an "intelligent thermite" thesis in the first place.


speak, debunkers... speak


From a forum that crows with laughter about debunking conspiracy theories...

...you ALL have ...on multiple occasions...refused to answer TWO simple questions on ...

1) what necessitated the advancement of an "intelligent thermite" thesis in the first place

and

2)did the Governmetn of Israel doctor two photos used to explain away the murders of 34 American soldiers...


speak, debunkers... speak
 

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