Okay, convince me Jesus existed.

[Resume]

The whole focal point of Islam is not based on a single historical event as with Christianity. Mohammed never claimed to be divine. No miracles were attributed to him until hundreds of years after his death.

Here is a comparison of Jesus and Mohammed:

http://carm.org/religious-movements/islam/comparison-between-jesus-and-muhammad

Thanks for the unapologetic christian apologetic link.

By the way, what single historic event is christianity based on? Emphasizing historic here.

 

[RandFan]

After Jesus was gone lots of people who claimed to have known him first-hand risked their lives setting up churches around the world. Anything is possible but it does not seem plausable that the man was made up for the hell of it.

No one claims he made it up for the hell of it. No more than the followers of Mohammad made it up and risked their lives and faced the inquisitions and crusades. No more than the followers of Joseph Smith, many who rixked thier lives for Mormonism and spread Mormonism to every continent in the world. No more than the followers of Scientology, Jehova;s Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, Hindu, Sikh, on and on and on. You only see evidence for your beliefs because of your bias. You don't even give a damn about other evidence for other churches because you dismiss it before you hear it.

One of the 12 started the church in India alone. One started a church in Africa alone. Peter and Paul started the chruch in Greece.

There are great stories of struggle and victorious of Mormons also. That is nothing special. Joseph died for his beliefs. Many religious people have sacrificed everything for their beliefs. Nothing unique here.

You have these 12 guys who branch out in different directions telling the same story about their dead leader at great costs and risk to their own life? And it is all made up? Whatever, dude.[/quote]No, it's legend, The phone game. Religious zealotry coupled with ever more fantastical tales,

Ehrman documents that with time the tails grew and grew more fantastic, And you are wrong, the stroies are not exactly the same as there are fundamental and critical contradictions, And when they are they are obvious word for word plagerisms.

 

[Ethnikos]

*snip*
I now find theodicy disturbing.
*snip*

God, to me, is not like the Mr. God videos where you have a person discussing how he wants to something or how to deal with something.
I don't know if God even thinks. God thought as in creating a universe but then you have all these beings going about this universe forming things and they would be who is doing the thinking but they are operating within certain parameters that are evident to them such as various laws as to how things work as a system. So you could have like developers creating maps, but they all work using a basic engine.
God would be a final arbiter and if need be adjust the laws if there was a technical reason for it. But not for stupid or selfish reasons so the various entities in charge, most of the time work within the framework they are assigned to. Once true chaos is introduced, then you have failures and then the only recourse may be a reboot. Such things are not done for frivolous reasons and backups have to be made and then it can happen. Time, to the people suffering, drags on and they cry out. God could only deal with hearing it so long and sent his representative to tell those suffering not to worry they would be saved and go into the rebooted system.

 

[RandFan]

There is a book that presents the argument that jesus did not exist. But it reads like every other conspiracy theorist novel.

Ad hominem attack. Address the arguments not the motives of the person writing it. BTW: WHY do you think it reads like every other conspiracy theorist novel? I know of no arguments that rely on CT. Just human nature, rumor and legend.

This tells me that athiests are just as prone to fantastic delusions and are willing to believe anything their hearts desire simply because they want to.

Ad hominem.

it is simply not plausable that there was not a living breathing human being at the heart of such a huge movement.

Because if you say it then it must be true. And by this logic we can conclude that the Hindu gods were real.

Sure, lots of people could have been in on the scam. But it is just like saying the moon landing was faked. That too would have required lots of people to be in on the scam. It is not plausable.

No no one claims it was a simply a scam. Though from time to time that might played a part. But by your logic Joseph Smith is a prophet of god who restored the true church. Check it out.... or if you already know the truth what good is evidence that contradicts your beliefs, right?

 

[RandFan]

God, to me, is not like the Mr. God videos where you have a person discussing how he wants to something or how to deal with something.
I don't know if God even thinks. God thought as in creating a universe but then you have all these beings going about this universe forming things and they would be who is doing the thinking but they are operating within certain parameters that are evident to them such as various laws as to how things work as a system. So you could have like developers creating maps, but they all work using a basic engine.
God would be a final arbiter and if need be adjust the laws if there was a technical reason for it. But not for stupid or selfish reasons so the various entities in charge, most of the time work within the framework they are assigned to. Once true chaos is introduced, then you have failures and then the only recourse may be a reboot. Such things are not done for frivolous reasons and backups have to be made and then it can happen. Time, to the people suffering, drags on and they cry out. God could only deal with hearing it so long and sent his representative to tell those suffering not to worry they would be saved and go into the rebooted system.

Thanks. None of this is comforting to me. In fact in a number of ways it is even more disturbing. But that's fine. I can't falsify it. If it helps you then I respect that.

I don't mean to be belittling I promise but have you seen the Matrix series because that is exactly the narrative you describe?

 

[pakeha]

You mean Mr Deity, Ethnikos?
Here's one episode where the role of prayer is discussed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaZDcS-rMf4

If you don't value biblical sources, here are facts from non-biblical sources. From the book "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" by Norman Geisler and F. Turek. Pg. 223.....

Nooooooo.

Actually just the fact that Christianity is in existence to the extent it is is evidence for the Resurrection because the Resurrection is the whole focal point and essence of Christianity. So without a resurrection it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to exist. Since it does exist that can be considered some evidence. This is a very obvious point but many people have never considered it.

No.

 

[Ethnikos]

You mean Mr Deity?

That's what I was thinking.
Thanks for the correction.
More like Treebeard, for LOTR fans.
Woken up periodically in times of extreme crises.

 

[Mudcat]

The whole focal point of IslamChristianity is not based on a single historical event as with ChristianityIslam. Mohammed Jesus never claimed to be divine. No miracles were attributed to him until hundreds of years after his death.

So, how's the non-sequiter's and circular arguments working out for you lately DOC?

 

[DOC]

Thanks for the unapologetic christian apologetic link.

By the way, what single historic event is christianity based on? Emphasizing historic here.

The Resurrection, upon which there is very much historical evidence for its occurrence.

 

[DOC]

Except for the obvious 11, none of this is verifiable.

Sorry, no CNN back then, so we use historical evidence. The writings of Tacitus and Josephus are historical evidence plain and simple.

 

[Mudcat]

The Resurrection, upon which there is very much historical evidence for its occurrence.

You mean the very same (snicker) historical resurrection that has never been substantiated by anyone? [extreme sarcasm]Yeah, that's very compelling.[/extreme sarcasm]

 

[Resume]

The Resurrection, upon which there is very much historical evidence for its occurrence.

See, now to the best of my knowledge, there's no corroboration of this (I don't mean a hundred years after the alleged occurrence) or the emptying of tombs. It almost seems you're telling a fib.

 

[catsmate]

If you don't value biblical sources, here are facts from non-biblical sources. From the book "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" by Norman Geisler and F. Turek. Pg. 223.

All of the following facts were derived collectively from "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

3) He was a wonder worker.

4) He had a brother {some interpret that as cousin} named James.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

Note: Actually I haven't been able to verify #8 yet. Phlegon talked about darkness and there was some talk of an eclipse but Origen disagreed with him that it was a solar eclipse. So fact #8 is a little confusing and the time line of the eclipse is not clear.

As has been stated, repeatedly, in the numerous other threads this simply isn't true.
You also, conveniently, fail to mention the numerous others who should have written about the "historical" Jesus, if one existed, for example Philo Judaeus, Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Plutarch of Chaeronea, Justus of Tiberias, Damis and Apollonius of Tyana, Gaius Plinius Secundus, Decimus Junius Juvenalis, Marcus Valerius Martialus, Pausanias and many more.

 

[catsmate]

Actually just the fact that Christianity is in existence to the extent it is is evidence for the Resurrection because the Resurrection is the whole focal point and essence of Christianity. So without a resurrection it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to exist. Since it does exist that can be considered some evidence. This is a very obvious point but many people have never considered it.

Utter rubbish. Xian dogma has little if anything to do with any putative prophet/messiah claimant and far more to do with Paul of Tarsus who "vision" caused him to essentially create what is now xianity.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

It is like saying people did not walk on the moon. If it did not happen it would have been a greater and more impressive trick. NOT walking on the moon would have been more expensive and a greater event to pull off.

Rubbish.
There is vast evidence for Moon Landing.
None for Jesus.

12 people get together and agree that they should spread the teachings of a guy who did not exist all over the world !? That is freaking impressive!! Jesus NOT existing would have been trickier event to pull off and plan and carry out.

A silly strawman.
No-one argued that, Bill. Please pay attention.
There was NO Jesus, and there were NO 12 apostles.
They are all part of the story.

Did the 12 disciples not exist? Sounds like a conspiracy theory where each bit of evidence becomes a greater growing part of the conspiracy.

Wrong.
It is NOT a conspiracy theory at all.
There is NO conspiracy being claimed here at all.
What a pity you don't understand the issue here.
Please pay attention in future, Bill.

The 12 disciples did not exist.
There was NO "conspiracy" (an agreement to create a fiction.)
Are you one of these people who thinks you can win an argument by tarring something with that silly phrase "conspiracy theory" ?
Really?

Christian churches don't exist either. THey are just your imagination.

Of COURSE the church existed!
So does Scientology.
So Xenu must be true right?
According to your theory, that is.

This is a completely stupid argument, but it is endlessly repeated by people who have no idea what the issues are :

Jesus MUST be true, because it cannot be a "CONSPIRACY THEORY".

What complete and utter nonsense.


K.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

and there appears to be handful of credible extra-biblical references to him (will cite on request).

Because no-one but you knows about them, right?
Because no-one here has ever heard of them, right?
Because once you inform us, we'll all agree with you, right?

Wake up, Dessi !


K.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

I know that television programs that present themselves as being scientific cite historians that had seen him first-hand.

Wrong.
NO historians claimed to have seen Jesus first hand.
There is NO historical evidence for Jesus.

Not even any CHRISTIANS claimed to have met Jesus 1st hand, as I show here :
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167271

Now, the tv programs could be lying or the historians could be lying.

Well, did YOU check the facts, Bill?
No, you didn't.
I have, and you're wrong.
That's why you didn't cite any actual EVIDENCE.

But that reminds me of a cousin of mine who believes in the JFK assination was done by the mob. When I mention Posner's book debunking that, he brushes it off as being part of the larger conspiracy.

You have "conspiracies" on the brain.
The Jesus Myth Theory has NOTHING to do with a conspiracy at all.
I hope you can grasp that.


K.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

After Jesus was gone lots of people who claimed to have known him first-hand

Wrong.
There are NO (authentic) claims to have known Jesus 1st-hand. (Just the 2nd century forgery 2 Peter.)

Can you please stop preaching your faithful beliefs, and start citing some facts and evidence?


K.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

There is a book that presents the argument that jesus did not exist. But it reads like every other conspiracy theorist novel.

A book ?
Rubbish.
There are MANY books claiming Jesus did not exist.
Sadly, you appear completely unaware of them.

e.g. Earl Doherty's book is the prime example lately, and it does NOT claim a "conspiracy" at all.

The problem here Bill, is that you have NO IDEA what the Jesus Myth theory is actually about.

So all we get from you is preaching that Jesus MUST have existed because it cannot have been a conspiracy !

Wake up, Bill !
The Jesus Myth theory is NOT about conspiracy.
I really truly hope you can come to understand this simple fact.


K.

 

[Oystein]

The above was changed by Oystein to this:



The whole focal point of Islam is not based on a single historical event

The revelation of the Holy Q'uran to Mohammed can be regarded as a single event that took a lifetime. The Holy Q'uran is the whole focal point of Islam.
You are wrong.

as with Christianity. Mohammed never claimed to be divine.

Obvious strawman. I didn't talk about Mohammed at all. I talked about the Holy Q'uran. Which is claimed to be the word of god, which means it is devine (hence "Holy" Q'uran).

No miracles were attributed to him until hundreds of years after his death.

Obious strawman.



Islam exists because the Holy Q'uran is the Word of God.
Corrolary:
Islam would not exist if the Holy Q'uran were not the Word of God.
Islam exists.
Therefore, the Holy Q'uran is the Word of God.

q.e.d.
(according to your logic)


Show us what's wrong with your logic, or accept that the Holy Q'uran is the Word of God.

Do not use any more strawmen.