Okay, convince me Jesus existed.

[MRC_Hans]

If you don't value biblical sources, here are facts from non-biblical sources. From the book "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" by Norman Geisler and F. Turek. Pg. 223.

All of the following facts were derived collectively from "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

3) He was a wonder worker.

4) He had a brother {some interpret that as cousin} named James.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

Note: Actually I haven't been able to verify #8 yet. Phlegon talked about darkness and there was some talk of an eclipse but Origen disagreed with him that it was a solar eclipse. So fact #8 is a little confusing and the time line of the eclipse is not clear.

Except for the obvious 11, none of this is verifiable.

Hans

 

[DC]

It was all a scribal error, in the original it talked of the Erection not the Resurrection so it's not too surprising that of the third day, seeing the women, he rose again.

aah that is why his rotting body was not found anywhere

he ended up as the worlds first Dildo

 

[RandFan]

I would meet with you and you would tell me what you needed to have changed about how you are living that God would find unacceptable and you need some special help to overcome that particular problem.
I would pray and lay hands on you and then you would later find that you somehow were able to get over that mental hurdle that you were tripping on before. Then you would think to yourself, Jesus did this.

I grew up Mormon and the laying on of hands is very big in Mormonism. When the Elders of the Church would do that I was often overcome with emotion. It was one of the things that convinced me that Joseph Smith was truly a prophet of god and that he saw Jesus. When I was a missionary for the Church I often performed laying on of hands. Again I saw people emotional and filled with happiness and peace.

Later I found out that there is a neurological basis for this and it works for Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and is often strongest in cults and fringe sects. It's simply a bi product of evolutionary genetics. Such social interaction can release endorphins and oxytocin, in fact it has been discovered that human contact to be one of the best means to stimulate the release of oxytocin.

 

[welshdean]

So, give me reason to believe Jesus existed. Simple, right?

They can't. They'll wriggle, squirm, obfuscate and outright lie, but they can't and won't be providing any evidence.

I would pray and lay hands on you and then you would later find that you somehow were able to get over that mental hurdle that you were tripping on before. Then you would think to yourself, Jesus did this.

For chrissakes, are you saying that if you touch me and whisper to your imaginary friend, I'll suddenly believe in fairy stories. Hmmm, try again buster.

It may have been a deal to have Judas become some sort of important priest.

Is this the same Judas that hung himself?
Is this the same Judas that exploded in a rocky field?

If you don't value biblical sources, here are facts from non-biblical sources. From the book "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" by Norman Geisler and F. Turek. Pg. 223.

All of the following facts were derived collectively from "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

3) He was a wonder worker.

4) He had a brother {some interpret that as cousin} named James.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

Note: Actually I haven't been able to verify #8 yet. Phlegon talked about darkness and there was some talk of an eclipse but Origen disagreed with him that it was a solar eclipse. So fact #8 is a little confusing and the time line of the eclipse is not clear.

Where to start .
That ridiculous excuse for a 'book' has been ripped to shreds on these boards more often than I've had cooked dinners. By repeating your pathetic attempts to offer it as any justification for a belief in xtianity or a critique of atheism is nothing short of dishonesty. BTW I live in the UK and managed to read it online. It is written (by or) for an eight year old, contains far too many twists of logic and makes more leaps than Jimney frigging Cricket.
As for your list:
1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.
No he didn't, the fairy stories say he did, the OP asks for proof, not blind assertions.

2) He lived a virtuous life.
No he didn't, the fairy stories say he did, the OP asks for proof, not blind assertions.

3) He was a wonder worker.
Yeah, in as much as Mr Magorium or Willy Wonka was.

4) He had a brother {some interpret that as cousin} named James.
No he didn't, the fairy stories say he did, the OP asks for proof, not blind assertions.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.
No he didn't, the fairy stories say he did, the OP asks for proof, not blind assertions.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.
No he didn't, the fairy stories say he did, the OP asks for proof, not blind assertions.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.
Indeed, if we are to believe the babble on such matters.
John 18:28
Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
John 19:14-16
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour...

or

Mark 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover...
Mark 15:25And it was the third hour, and they crucified him...

Oh I love the smell of biblical contradictions in the morning

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.
Yeah, and Popeye ate spinach and kicked Bluto arse. DOC, is there any reason why the Romans, Chinese, Europeans etc etc etc failed to record this.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.
I believe I have a 9" penis, my missus believes otherwise. How do we use this as a pathway to truth?

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.
Last night I was willing to die for a steak, ergo El Rancho Steak Bar is the new Messiah.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.
WooHoo, one out of 12. Top of the class.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.
I deny your god and worship the One True God 'Aberhaten'. What does that make our resident Pharaoh?

Actually just the fact that Christianity is in existence to the extent it is is evidence for the Resurrection because the Resurrection is the whole focal point and essence of Christianity. So without a resurrection it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to exist. Since it does exist that can be considered some evidence. This is a very obvious point but many people have never considered it.

Round and round the mulberry bush...

"Evidence for" is not equivalent to "surely accept".

Are you hard of reading? Do you really not understand the point being made?

Why? It's your post.

No! It's your lack of comprehension. Even DOC understands the point.

Ooooh, another logic wheel for Aken to play with...

Pharaoh, where for art thou?

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

I have a cousin named Jesus.




That's all I got.

 

[Leumas]

That was a question someone asked, about how a prayer would be different from someone else's prayer. If I was to pray for a person in the name of Jesus and his prayer was answered, then it would have been Jesus doing it.Luke was definatly "created", for why, a good question.

Not at all a necessarily correct conclusion from the assumption.

What if it was the DEVIL doing the healing? His purpose would be to deceive the healer and healed into believing in a FALSE god.

If Jesus was really doing the healing and he is the loving god he is purported to be then EVERY PRAYER in his name would result in a healing (Mark 16:18). Why is it only VERY FEW are actually successful? Could it be the TRICKS of a well versed trickster demigod (Satan)?

Why would Satan want to trick people into believing in Jesus? Well many verses in the OT and NT attest to the fact that he does TRICK people into all sorts of things.

Who else would convince Ezekiel to eat feces?

Satan hardened Pharaoh heart to not let the Jews go so as to justify their destruction.

Satan tricked Ahab into going to a war that Satan lied to him about and told him that he would win.

The Lord Satan is also the deception behind all deceived prophets (e.g. Ezekiel).

Think about it.....when YHWH appeared to Moses he appeared as a BURNING bush.....fire....Satan's Insignia is fire......but even further than that..... When Moses approached, YHWH asked him to take his shoes off so as not to trample the "holy ground".

We all know that a God is not in the ground....only Satan is in the ground.

Thus Satan (a.k.a YHWH) appears to Moses using his usual manifestation (fire) and he has just come out from the ground which he did not want Moses to soil since he is still partially in it. Only part of his flame was enveloping the bush, the rest was still in the ground where he came from.

When Moses asks him his name he obfuscates and says "I am whoever I am...muhahaha"

PRESTO..... I have just again proven the Quaternary .....

En el nomber del padre, hijo, espirito santo y el diablo magno​

 

[Bill Thompson]

It is like saying people did not walk on the moon. If it did not happen it would have been a greater and more impressive trick. NOT walking on the moon would have been more expensive and a greater event to pull off.

12 people get together and agree that they should spread the teachings of a guy who did not exist all over the world !? That is freaking impressive!! Jesus NOT existing would have been trickier event to pull off and plan and carry out.

Did the 12 disciples not exist? Sounds like a conspiracy theory where each bit of evidence becomes a greater growing part of the conspiracy. Christian churches don't exist either. THey are just your imagination.

 

[Ethnikos]

ISuch social interaction can release endorphins and oxytocin, in fact it has been discovered that human contact to be one of the best means to stimulate the release of oxytocin.

Very interesting information. Well you may be a person that this proposed proof procedure would not be appealing to. Most likely, for a more skeptical person, it would take a couple decades to become convinced that the healing was more than temporary or purely emotional or chemical. Or even thirty years would still be unconvincing.
I got the idea for this demonstration from personal experience and thought that it could be repeatable, of when I believe that I was healed.

 

[Ethnikos]

For chrissakes, are you saying that if you touch me and whisper to your imaginary friend, I'll suddenly believe in fairy stories. Hmmm, try again buster.

Is this the same Judas that hung himself?
Is this the same Judas that exploded in a rocky field?

You would have to believe in God and that He wants you to live a perfect and sinless life. So it would work for that person, if he did not know quite how to achieve that goal exactly. I would offer to that person Jesus as a helper who can heal you of your shortcomings such as psychological scaring that caused you to hold feelings of anger that were not godly emotions.

Judas was a disciple of some rank and notoriety to where he was submitted to Jesus for consideration when he was filling out the number for his core twelve disciples. I would submit the possibility that Judas was of a high order of priests and was know to the important temple priests, and so how he was approached by them when they were looking for a betrayer of Jesus.
I think a possible support for this would be a discovery of a town or community of priests connected to the temple, that had a name, Iscariot or one that his name could have been derived from.

 

[DC]

It is like saying people did not walk on the moon. If it did not happen it would have been a greater and more impressive trick. NOT walking on the moon would have been more expensive and a greater event to pull off.

12 people get together and agree that they should spread the teachings of a guy who did not exist all over the world !? That is freaking impressive!! Jesus NOT existing would have been trickier event to pull off and plan and carry out.

Did the 12 disciples not exist? Sounds like a conspiracy theory where each bit of evidence becomes a greater growing part of the conspiracy. Christian churches don't exist either. THey are just your imagination.

how many of the bible inventors eeh authors, did allegedly know Jesus?

 

[Leumas]

It is like saying people did not walk on the moon. If it did not happen it would have been a greater and more impressive trick. NOT walking on the moon would have been more expensive and a greater event to pull off.

12 people The editors and publishers and writer of Harry Potter get together and agree that they should spread the teachings of a guy who did not exist all over the world !? That is freaking impressive!! Jesus Harry Potter NOT existing would have been trickier event to pull off and plan and carry out.

Did the 12 disciples J.K. Rowling not exist? Sounds like a conspiracy theory where each bit of evidence becomes a greater growing part of the conspiracy. Christian churches Harry Potter dolls and movies and Theme Parks don't exist either. THey are just your imagination.

I fixed it for you.....


So according to your argument ....Harry Potter must also be a real guy.


Now let's go on to prove that he is also a real wizard and that Voldemort should also be added to the Trinity of Harry Ron and Hermione

 

[Craig4]

It is like saying people did not walk on the moon. If it did not happen it would have been a greater and more impressive trick. NOT walking on the moon would have been more expensive and a greater event to pull off.

12 people get together and agree that they should spread the teachings of a guy who did not exist all over the world !? That is freaking impressive!! Jesus NOT existing would have been trickier event to pull off and plan and carry out.

Did the 12 disciples not exist? Sounds like a conspiracy theory where each bit of evidence becomes a greater growing part of the conspiracy. Christian churches don't exist either. THey are just your imagination.

Just because they existed doesn't mean Jesus was really anything other than a cult leader with good press.

 

[RandFan]

12 people get together and agree that they should spread the teachings of a guy who did not exist all over the world !?

A.) We don't know that the 12 existed.
B.) We don't know that if they existed they said the things attributed to him (likely not).
C.) We don't know if they believed Jesus was the who he said he was if Jesus existed.

Thousands testify that Sathya Sai Baba is a living god. They testify that he performs miracles and changes people's lives. They are willing to spread the story of Sai Baba to bless the world. Why should we not think that Jesus, if he lived was like Sai Baba?

Cargo cults are demonstrative of just how easy it is to reify rumors and wishful thinking. We have a word for these, myths and legends.

There are many possible explanations for the stories we have now. Parsimony would dictate we can ignore the supernatural ones.

That is freaking impressive

Not at all. If you bother to learn about other religions, human nature and psychology. It's not at all impressive.

Jesus NOT existing would have been trickier event to pull off and plan and carry out.

No planing was needed. Just human nature and psychology.

Did the 12 disciples not exist?

I don't know. Assuming they did how do we know that the things attributed to them are factual? We just don't know. Further we have very good reason to think not. There are many contradictions and anachronisms to suppose that if they did live they said and did what is reported.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory where each bit of evidence becomes a greater growing part of the conspiracy.

No more a conspiracy theory than conspiracy theories to account for cargo cults.

Christian churches don't exist either. THey are just your imagination.

Cargo cults don't exist. Islam doesn't exist. Hindus don't exist. Joseph Smith doesn't exist (many people testified of his miracles. Sai Baba doesn't exist (same reason).

This is a skeptics forum. You should learn at some point how to be skeptical of your own beliefs and do some research before you make such claims.

 

[RandFan]

Very interesting information. Well you may be a person that this proposed proof procedure would not be appealing to. Most likely, for a more skeptical person, it would take a couple decades to become convinced that the healing was more than temporary or purely emotional or chemical. Or even thirty years would still be unconvincing.
I got the idea for this demonstration from personal experience and thought that it could be repeatable, of when I believe that I was healed.

When I was a child I had an injury to my eye. Not sure why we didn't go to the ER but my mother told me to wait for my father. I was in pain and very scared. I cried until he came home. When he did he called the elders of the church and they anointed me with oil and laid their hands on me and gave me a blessing. When it was over I was no longer in pain. I was tired so went to bed. The next morning my father took me to the eye doctor. He told me that I would have to have surgery but wanted to probe the wound (a piece of metal had embedded itself in my eye). He poked at it and it popped out. He was amazed and said it was a miracle. This was proof to me that Joseph Smith was the prophet of god.

Later I learned about the placebo effect and the fact that we would live in a very bizarre world if unusual things (miracles) didn't happen.

I can't take from you what you believe your experience means. It's just not compelling to me.

 

[Dessi]

However, I, John Doe, see no reason to believe he existed at all.

So, give me reason to believe Jesus existed. Simple, right?

Atheist perspective here:

I don't know a lot about the bible, but from my perspective, people who hold the "Christ myth" view will accept one the following propositions:

1) That Jesus never existed in any sense whatsoever, Jesus is a story which arose out of nowhere or perhaps inspired from earlier religions. I think this is generally called the Christ Myth view.

2) That Jesus could have existed, and details of his life are exaggerated, paranormal events developed from an oral tradition which originated after his death.

I'd view the second view as more parsimonious than the first: that Jesus may have existed and his life is completely lost in myth and legend.

Christ myth explanations suggest that Christ-like concepts existed in oral tradition centuries before Jesus did, and that Jesus is a re-invented pagan god. The subject has been done to death on this forum, and I think the general consensus is that "re-invented pagan god" theories are based on 150+ year outdated scholarship, that most or all pagan deities purported to have been born in immaculate conception and sacrificed for humanity's sins are blatant falsehoods (i.e. earliest source documents for Osiris, Mithra, and other purported proto-Jesus figures do not even closely resemble the Jesus birth/death narratives at all, not even superficially). Since this view is very strongly relies on the that proto-Jesus archetypes ("dying god men") existed long before Jesus, but the archetypes are based on junk science; being a foundational view, the credibility of this position is thrown into question. Christ could very well be a myth, but not for the "pagan prototype" reasons that mythicists argue.

Christ myth view lacks parsimony. There doesn't appear to be prior history of oral tradition to describe Jesus, the sayings attributed to him, and there appears to be handful of credible extra-biblical references to him (will cite on request).

I would tend to be more skeptical of the Christ Myth view than the historical-but-not-magical view.

 

[dafydd]

Actually just the fact that Christianity is in existence to the extent it is is evidence for the Resurrection because the Resurrection is the whole focal point and essence of Christianity. So without a resurrection it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to exist. Since it does exist that can be considered some evidence. This is a very obvious point but many people have never considered it.

I've considered it. It didn't happen.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Wait a second.

Is this kind of like a challenge to convince someone that Santa Claus existed and if someone shows you a proof of a real Saint Nicholas, you are pissed off because you meant the mythical Santa Claus all along?

 

[welshdean]

However, I, John Doe, see no reason to believe he existed at all.

So, give me reason to believe Jesus existed. Simple, right?

Well 58 posts in and no reasons offered.

Speaks for itself really.


[Deathly] Hallowed be Harry Potter!

 

[welshdean]

You would have to believe in God and that He wants you to live a perfect and sinless life. So it would work for that person, if he did not know quite how to achieve that goal exactly.

A perfect and 'sinless' life is impossible to achieve. If you know of one person that has, I'd love to hear about it.

I would offer to that person Jesus as a helper who can heal you of your shortcomings such as psychological scaring that caused you to hold feelings of anger that were not godly emotions.

I'm not scared of the big bad wolf, the bogeyman or Candyman. Oh and if feelings of anger are not 'godly' emotions, please explain this:
Mark 11:12-17 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply [sic] he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.

Judas was a disciple of some rank and notoriety to where he was submitted to Jesus for consideration when he was filling out the number for his core twelve disciples. I would submit the possibility that Judas was of a high order of priests and was know to the important temple priests, and so how he was approached by them when they were looking for a betrayer of Jesus.
I think a possible support for this would be a discovery of a town or community of priests connected to the temple, that had a name, Iscariot or one that his name could have been derived from.

We'll put your ramblings to one side and I'll ask again. Which Judas, the one that hung himself or the one that exploded in the rocky field?

 

[RandFan]

Wait a second.



Is this kind of like a challenge to convince someone that Santa Claus existed and if someone shows you a proof of a real Saint Nicholas, you are pissed off because you meant the mythical Santa Claus all along?

Wait a second,

1. Demonstrate to me that a man existed who is claimed to be Jesus?
2. Then and only then demonstrate to me that this man did and said that which was attributed to him.

You can either meet those requirements or you can't. Now, without engaging in silly games, can you?