Okay, convince me Jesus existed.

[Ethnikos]

This was proof to me that Joseph Smith was the prophet of god.

Well thanks for the personal story and I hope to learn from that. My situation was where I was presented an opportunity to be healed but where I did not have to publicly say what I wanted to be healed of. I thought it in my mind during the process, then just let it go. It took me a while before I realized I was not harboring those negative thoughts and maybe I unconsciously found a way to suppress them but 27 or whatever years later, I am still good. What the thing was that was bothering me so much and I was obsessing on was this amazingly disastrous marriage ending in divorce.

 

[Ethnikos]

A perfect and 'sinless' life is impossible to achieve. If you know of one person that has, I'd love to hear about it.
I'm not scared of the big bad wolf, the bogeyman or Candyman. Oh and if feelings of anger are not 'godly' emotions, please explain this:
And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply [sic] he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.
We'll put your ramblings to one side and I'll ask again. Which Judas, the one that hung himself or the one that exploded in the rocky field?

That is something I would have to take some time to research, if various religious systems other than Christianity have thoughts on sin. More likely they would not have a concept of sin so it would be easy enough for them to live a sinless life. But you should study up on Christianity in order to understand the concepts. When a child is baptized, it is cleansed of original sin and from that point on, could and should live a sinless life. That is doctrine and dogma.
But of course that is useless for my example because it would be someone not already a Christian, who needs to be given Jesus.
The fig tree was a device to illustrate a point.
The various deaths were attempts by scribes to reconcile the story with prophecy, which of course was not available to them, on account of most likely being destroyed by zealous early Christians who burnt every "Hebrew" book they could find, so were stuck making a hodgepodge out of the OT prophecies.

 

[welshdean]

Well thanks for the personal story and I hope to learn from that. My situation was where I was presented an opportunity to be healed but where I did not have to publicly say what I wanted to be healed of. I thought it in my mind during the process, then just let it go. It took me a while before I realized I was not harboring those negative thoughts and maybe I unconsciously found a way to suppress them but 27 or whatever years later, I am still good. What the thing was that was bothering me so much and I was obsessing on was this amazingly disastrous marriage ending in divorce.

Mate, I went through an acrimonious divorce after a hard relationship. Nobody rubbed me with [a] god's love to make me better.


A drinking and whoring is a good short term solution, but this stuff is perfect...



No room for god in this gap.

ETA: just realised 'the gap' was 27 years .

Eeeeerm, okay then, maybe room for one god, only a little god.

 

[RandFan]

Well thanks for the personal story and I hope to learn from that. My situation was where I was presented an opportunity to be healed but where I did not have to publicly say what I wanted to be healed of. I thought it in my mind during the process, then just let it go. It took me a while before I realized I was not harboring those negative thoughts and maybe I unconsciously found a way to suppress them but 27 or whatever years later, I am still good. What the thing was that was bothering me so much and I was obsessing on was this amazingly disastrous marriage ending in divorce.

Thats cool. I'm happy for you. My pronlem is that the world around me looks precisely like a world where there is no god or one in which god does not intervene. People who cause great harm, destruction and missery often get to harm a lot of people (Manson) and some get to do it for a long time (BTK killer). Then there are children who are born with defects, they suffer horribly and then die. These are often the children of devout theists. Why would good help me with my eye but not the neihbor's kid who died of lukemia? Why did god heal my eye but won't grow back the limbs of amputees? I don't see god. I see cause and effect and limited understanding of the many variables of defect and disease. Genetic defect and chaos. The god hypothesis raises far more questions than it could ever answer. At best people spakle over the holes with faith and ignorance (we can't know the mind of god).

If I kill your child but give you a car the fact that I did something good and the fact that you don't understand my reasons hardly justifies my cruelty. That an omnipotent god is supposed to do the same and prhaps has lollipops and cotton candy waiting in heaven for the child doesn't negate the cruelty IMO.

 

[Ethnikos]

ETA: just realised 'the gap' was 27 years .

Sorry I did not make that too clear. It has been 27 years since I was "healed" if that is the proper description. Not suffering for 27 years. Probably between 7 and 8 where I could not let it go.

 

[welshdean]

The various deaths were attempts by scribes to reconcile the story with prophecy, which of course was not available to them, on account of most likely being destroyed by zealous early Christians who burnt every "Hebrew" book they could find, so were stuck making a hodgepodge out of the OT prophecies.

Agreed.
At last, something we agree on.
The NT is a 'hodgepodge' of lies, attempting, but failing repeatedly to vindicate a sadistic and capricious god.
Now that's settled.

Will you now please agree with me that the OT is a bunch of fairy tales for the goat herding, bronze age illiterates that invented it?

 

[Ethnikos]

The god hypothesis raises far more questions than it could ever answer. At best people spakle over the holes with faith and ignorance (we can't know the mind of god).

My hypotheses would be one of local events and it comes maybe by being taught guardian angels. My friend who lived next door to me was a Mormon, this was in Southern California, San Diego County, and I would go with him to their church once a week after school, to get indoctrinated, just because I thought the stories they told were cool. Anyway, they told me all about angels, so I may share some of your ideas. I imagine that whatever the creator is, does not do things on a microcosmic scale but delegates the jobs to demigods and a whole hierarchy of special beings. It is not a consistent or fair way of doing things but according to my scheme of things, the universe was not designed with provisions to accommodate sin entering into it. That would indicate a defect in the creator but I don't see it that way. That (having made provision) would be a reason to let it (sin) continue because you already have things like detachable souls and hell and heaven and purgatory and demons and Satan already part of creation and that is magnitudes of hideousness worse, to me.

 

[Ethnikos]

Agreed.
Will you now please agree with me that the OT is a bunch of fairy tales for the goat herding, bronze age illiterates that invented it?

My explanation would be considerably more negative than what you just described but I restrain myself on the bases of not wanting to loose all ability to argue with Christians and such, from the Bible.

 

[RandFan]

My hypotheses would be one of local events and it comes maybe by being taught guardian angels. My friend who lived next door to me was a Mormon, this was in Southern California, San Diego County, and I would go with him to their church once a week after school, to get indoctrinated, just because I thought the stories they told were cool. Anyway, they told me all about angels, so I may share some of your ideas. I imagine that whatever the creator is, does not do things on a microcosmic scale but delegates the jobs to demigods and a whole hierarchy of special beings. It is not a consistent or fair way of doing things but according to my scheme of things, the universe was not designed with provisions to accommodate sin entering into it. That would indicate a defect in the creator but I don't see it that way. That (having made provision) would be a reason to let it (sin) continue because you already have things like detachable souls and hell and heaven and purgatory and demons and Satan already part of creation and that is magnitudes of hideousness worse, to me.

Thanks. Thats cool. BTW: When I was on my mission I had to often deal with the question of evil. It was largely a settled issue for me and I gave my defence with confidence. I was very succesful at baptising so I think I did a good job of it. Having been on both sides I now find theodicy disturbing. It's more palatable when you believe in god which itself causes me significant distress. But I can live with your theodicy. I just don't personally like it. But I will hasten to add that it is just my opinion.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Just because they existed doesn't mean Jesus was really anything other than a cult leader with good press.

I always thought he was something like that. It is no revelation to me.

 

[bikerdruid]

So Christianity exists because of the Resurrection and we can be sure that the Resurrection happened because Christianity exists?

an example of doc's circular reasoning.
as in:
"we know that jesus existed, because luke wrote about him.
we know the luke was a great historian and reliable, because we can read about his jesus."

 

[Bill Thompson]

Wait a second,

1. Demonstrate to me that a man existed who is claimed to be Jesus?
2. Then and only then demonstrate to me that this man did what was attributed to him.

Now, you can either meet those requirements or you can't. Now, without engaging in silly games, can you?

I know that television programs that present themselves as being scientific cite historians that had seen him first-hand.

Now, the tv programs could be lying or the historians could be lying.

But that reminds me of a cousin of mine who believes in the JFK assination was done by the mob. When I mention Posner's book debunking that, he brushes it off as being part of the larger conspiracy.

By the way, no one rational think jesus did all the things that are attributed to him. For you to assume lots of people do and that this is part of you believing that he did not exist tells me that it is YOU who are irrationial.

 

[I Ratant]

I have a cousin named Jesus.




That's all I got.

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How'd a Jewish boy get a Mexican name?*
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.
.
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"Country Joe and the Fish"..

 

[Bill Thompson]

After Jesus was gone lots of people who claimed to have known him first-hand risked their lives setting up churches around the world. Anything is possible but it does not seem plausable that the man was made up for the hell of it.

One of the 12 started the church in India alone. One started a church in Africa alone. Peter and Paul started the chruch in Greece.

You have these 12 guys who branch out in different directions telling the same story about their dead leader at great costs and risk to their own life? And it is all made up? Whatever, dude.

 

[SumDood]

By the way, no one rational think jesus did all the things that are attributed to him. For you to assume lots of people do and that this is part of you believing that he did not exist tells me that it is YOU who are irrationial.

I'm pretty sure that there are millions of fundamentalist in the United States who believe everything in the bible literally.

 

[Toontown]

Jesus lives, and is the Son of God. We know this because He told us the earth's circumference at a time when no mortal could have known it.

No, wait. That's not right. I've gotten Jesus confused with that ancient Alexandrian who accurately calculated the earth's circumference using a few roughly known measurements. This was before Jesus' time and before anyone was supposed to know the earth is a globe. Jesus said the earth had 4 corners. That was incorrect. So Jesus clearly hadn't gotten the memo.

OK, here's the real deal: Jesus lives and is the Son of God because if He wasn't, all the little birdies would sing out of tune. When you walk in the woods, you would hear only a cacaphony of off-key twitters and squawks.

 

[Bill Thompson]

There is a book that presents the argument that jesus did not exist. But it reads like every other conspiracy theorist novel.

This tells me that athiests are just as prone to fantastic delusions and are willing to believe anything their hearts desire simply because they want to.

it is simply not plausable that there was not a living breathing human being at the heart of such a huge movement. Sure, lots of people could have been in on the scam. But it is just like saying the moon landing was faked. That too would have required lots of people to be in on the scam. It is not plausable.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I'm pretty sure that there are millions of fundamentalist in the United States who believe everything in the bible literally.

I know. It sucks, huh?

 

[RandFan]

I know that television programs that present themselves as being scientific cite historians that had seen him first-hand.

AFAIK thats false. I have, and have read, Bart Ehrman's books and he thouroughly debunks the claims. Give me one or more and I will do so. BTW: Be careful of what you call science.

Now, the tv programs could be lying or the historians could be lying.

Or you could missremeber or have missheard. Or the programs could have been missinformed. I've seen Ehrman in debates with theists and they always concede his points. They have no choice. As a proffesor and expert on ancient langiages and texts and as an histrian and Bible scholar he has the goods.

But that reminds me of a cousin of mine who believes in the JFK assination was done by the mob. When I mention Posner's book debunking that, he brushes it off as being part of the larger conspiracy.

Will you read Ehrman's book debunking the claims that you made? Or will you be like your cousin? The truth is out there.

By the way, no one rational think jesus did all the things that are attributed to him.

The Jesus Seminar, assuming Jesus existed, and being composed of a wide array of scholars including Christian ones, think there is little in the Bible that can be attributed to Jesus.

For you to assume lots of people do and that this is part of you believing that he did not exist tells me that it is YOU who are irrationial.

? Non sequitur.

 

[DOC]

Actually just the fact that Christianity is in existence to the extent it is is evidence for the Resurrection because the Resurrection is the whole focal point and essence of Christianity. So without a resurrection it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to exist. Since it does exist that can be considered some evidence. This is a very obvious point but many people have never considered it.

The above was changed by Oystein to this:

Actually just the fact that Islam is in existence to the extent it is is evidence for the divine origin of the Holy Q'uran because the divine origin of the Holy Q'uran is the whole focal point and essence of Islam. So without a divine origin of the Holy Q'uran it doesn't even make sense for Islam to exist. Since it does exist that can be considered some evidence. This is a very obvious point but many people have never considered it.

The whole focal point of Islam is not based on a single historical event as with Christianity. Mohammed never claimed to be divine. No miracles were attributed to him until hundreds of years after his death.

Here is a comparison of Jesus and Mohammed:

http://carm.org/religious-movements/islam/comparison-between-jesus-and-muhammad