Okay, convince me Jesus existed.

[Kapyong]

Gday,

The "Jesus never existed" conspiracy theory has parallels with the "Man never walked on the moon" conspiracy theory, thousands of NASA employees were there, but NOT ONE of them has ever come forward to say "it was a hoax".

Hmm, so you were serious.
But once again it's the same ol' nonsense about a CONSPIRACY !

Mick - you have NO IDEA what the Jesus Myth theory is about - it is NOT anything to do with a conspiracy. But it appears you think that using this silly phrase will win the argument? What a crock.

Same with Jesus, NOBODY in Israel after his death came forward to say "Jesus who? Never heard of him!".

Mick - there WAS NO death if he was a myth!

There were STORIES that only became known in mid-late 2nd century - after two wars with the Romans, after everyone was dead.

WHO would argue?
WHEN would they argue?
Please cite and date examples of external writers who knew of Jesus, and would have argued. Be specific.

That's because the Apollo program and Jesus were TOO BIG to be a hoax;

Mick - I really hope you hang around and start learning about the Jesus Myth theory. You may come to understand it has NOTHING to do with a "hoax" at all.

K.

 

[MickinEngland]

..The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the alleged last words of Jesus on the cross - we have DIFFERENT versions in the Gospels......The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the genealogy of Jesus - we have DIFFERENT versions in the Gospels.

Wait a minute mate, atheists say the bible has been edited, censored and tidied up over the centuries to make it look good, but now you're saying there are still contradictions in it.
Wish they'd make up their minds as to whether its been prettied up or not..

 

[Kapyong]

Mick -

When the Gospel stories finally became known in early-mid 2nd century, here are some of the responses :


Celsus,
in late 2nd century, attacked the Gospels as fiction based on myths :

"Clearly the christians have used...myths... in fabricating the story of Jesus' birth...It is clear to me that the writings of the christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction"


Caius,
claimed the truth about Jesus was falsified from the late 2nd century :
"For they say that ... from ... Zephyrinus the truth was falsified ..."



Porphyry,
in late 3rd century, claimed the Gospels were invented :
"... the evangelists were inventors – not historians”



Julian,
in the 4th century, claimed Jesus was spurious, counterfeit, invented :
"why do you worship this spurious son...a counterfeit son", "you have invented your new kind of sacrifice ".
Julian was
“convinced that the fabrication of the Galilaeans is a fiction of men composed by wickedness.. ”


That's not counting the various Christian sects who did NOT believe Jesus came in the flesh, and/or that he was a PHANTOM.


K.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

Wait a minute mate, atheists say

Atheists?
Right - so this is like a football game to you?

There are two sides :
* nasty atheists
vs
* lovely believers
?

Well, I am NOT an atheist - so your silly smear failed dismally.

the bible has been edited, censored and tidied up over the centuries to make it look good, but now you're saying there are still contradictions in it. Wish they'd make up their minds as to whether its been prettied up or not..

What nonsense.

The Bible HAS been editted many times. But no-one claims it has been made perfect.

Mick - you seem to be making up any old nonsense without thinking or checking. Perhaps you'll consider checking your facts before posting more nonsense? I hope so



K.

 

[abaddon]

Wait a minute mate, atheists say the bible has been edited, censored and tidied up over the centuries to make it look good, but now you're saying there are still contradictions in it.
Wish they'd make up their minds as to whether its been prettied up or not..

Yep, all true.

Shame the editors were not good enough to sanitise all the contradictions.

Or are you claiming the editors were perfect?

 

[Brainache]

Wait a minute mate, atheists say the bible has been edited, censored and tidied up over the centuries to make it look good, but now you're saying there are still contradictions in it.
Wish they'd make up their minds as to whether its been prettied up or not..

I believe the expression is: You can't polish a turd.

 

[Kapyong]

Mick -
So Jesus was a reptilian space alien?
What?

How could anyone believe that?
How did Jesus the reptilian space alien breath our air?


K.

 

[Kapyong]

Bill -
How could anyone agree that Jesus was the Time Traveller called John Titor?
What a silly argument.

Where is the evidence?
Why would he travel back to 1stC. when he could land here in 2011?


K.

 

[Bill Thompson]

The reason why I think it is most likely that Christ existed is because his teachings are similar to other rabbis at that time. But Jesus was younger and more charismatic. Like Elvis who also did not write any original material, Christ just packaged and presented in a way that was popular.

I also think Christ existed because Pilot, as I understand, crucified just about anyone who was a threat to his authority. I heard that the Catholics made up the whole "washing of hands" bit and that episode where Pilot made the people decide if Jesus should be killed because the Emperor of Rome was becoming Christian and there was a need to invent a story where the Romans were not as much to blame as the Jews for Jesus' death.

I also think Christ existed because there are bits and pieces in the gospels that sound all to human. For instance, I do not think the myths built up around Jesus are who he really was. Jesus, for example, seemed to believe what people were telling him about being the new King of the their people and the son of God. Jesus seemed to believe that God was going to spare his live via some magic. He cried out "Father, why have you forsaken me" when he was dying. Sounds like a real and desperate dying man to me. I don't think that was made up. If it was, the story would have him saying something else.

I also think Christ existed because if the gospels were made up by a committee, they would have more polish and jive together. Instead, little human faults from different memories and verbally retold stories appear. One gospel has Christ's robe when he was being marched to his death as being red while another says it is purple.

Sure there are lots of unbelievable miracles. But that is because the gospels where written long after Jesus died. Earlier Christians were sure Jesus would return in their lifetime. When that was not going to happen people started writing his story down. You are going to get exaggerations when someone has become larger than life.

I like to go with what is more plausable, not what is a conspiracy theory that is entertaining to believe.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

I also think Christ existed because Pilot, as I understand, crucified just about anyone who was a threat to his authority. I heard that the Catholics made up the whole "washing of hands" bit and that episode where Pilot ...another says it is purple.

So Jesus was a time-travelling pilot who flew from the future in a purple space-ship ?
What a supid idea.


K.

 

[Brainache]

Gday,



So Jesus was a time-travelling pilot who flew from the future?
What a supid idea.


K.

No No NO!

He was condemned to death by Pilot!



As were we all...

 

[bikerdruid]

Yup dead simple mate, the entire nation of Israel and the Roman army garrison saw him for 3 long years, how many more eyewitnesses do you need?

unfortunately, they never told anyone or wrote anything down.

 

[Greediguts]

Has anyone posted a list of books to read?

HJ stuff I would recommend -

A Marginal Jew by Meier (4 volume series - one of the best).

Jesus of Nazareth by Fredriksen.

Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium by Ehrman

A book with a larger overview covering several authors views (from HJ to MJ) is The Historical Jesus: Five Views edited by Beilby.

Books on mystery cults/pagans/ etc -

Pagans and Christians by Robin Lane Fox (out-of-print I believe - great book).

Ancient Mystery Cults by Burkert

Mystery Cults of the Ancient World by Bowden

OT/Jewish Studies -

From Text to Tradition: A History of Second Temple & Rabbinic Juadism by Schiffman.

How To Read the Bible: A Guide to Scripture Then and Now by Kugel.

Stuff about Paul-

The Writings of St. Paul: A Norton Critical Edition edited by Meeks.

Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene by Ehrman.

The First Paul by Borg and Crossan.

In Search of Paul by Crossan and Reed. ( I like Crossan's work on Paul more than his cynic-philospher HJ theory.)

This is a good start. I think Kapyong would be better at recommending MJ stuff.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Has anyone posted a list of books to read?

I posted this:

Go here:
http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm
There is plenty for you to read. And you'll find plenty of answers (whether they are good answers is another question entirely) to your questions. Wrt your inquiry about Paul, for example, the answer has to be that in Doherty's MJ not only did Paul exist, but was in fact (one of) the key figure(s) in early Christianity.

There is much to glean from this very thread here, and from other threads, too of course.

You might have missed it. While that webpage is not a book obviously, it does contain lots of stuff that you can also read in Doherty's book The Jesus Puzzle. In fact, if you read the main articles:
http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/mainarticles-1.html
it should give you a pretty good idea what Doherty is on about and you may not actually need the book anymore. Depends of course, on what you want and how in-depth you want to go.

Doherty is of course not the only "no-Jesus" theory. But his and theories in a similar vein are probably the only really plausible ones.

 

[Kapyong]

No No NO!
He was condemned to death by Pilot!

As were we all...

Drop The Pilot !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRuv1sotmQU

('twas a popular song in Aus during the pilot's strike of 83

K.

 

[Kapyong]

Here are some suggestions :

The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man.
http://www.amazon.com/Incredible-Shrinking-Son-Man-Tradition/dp/1591021219
which covers what I think is an important issue, and one that is not particularly controversial - that the Jesus' stories can be found pre-figured in the Tanakh (the Old Testament.)
A similar argument can be found here by Michael Turton (Vorkosigan on FRDB) :
http://www.michaelturton.com/Mark/GMark_index.html


Jesus - Neither God nor Man
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Neither-God-Case-Mythical/dp/0968925928
This is Doherty's most recent book (the earlier one is The Jesus Puzzle.)
It covers what I consider is the premier Jesus Myth theory of the day, and one which I argue is CORRECT. Note well:

• he does NOT argue a conspiracy,
• he does NOT argue any secret committee
• he does NOT argue any "hoax" or "fraud"
• he does not argue solely from silences.

Doherty's views can be read on his web-site as mentioned, which covers most of his argument. But let's face it - Bill will not be reading anything; maybe Mick will, we can only hope


AcharyaS(Maybe even Kersey Graves)
What? Yes, I think any sceptic should read her as an exercise in discimination. One has to learn how to separate the Doherty's from the Murdochs.


Evidence that demans a verdict
http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Demands-Questions-Challenging-Christians/dp/0785243631
For a similar reason - then follow up with :

Evidence that demands a refund
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/newetdav.html
By seeing these two together, the strength of the HJ argument becomes clear - a used tissue in a hurricane.


K.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

Doherty is of course not the only "no-Jesus" theory. But his and theories in a similar vein are probably the only really plausible ones.

Yah - Doherty's is plausible.
The others are mostly crap.

I should note that I may have a bit extreme about one issue - because there ARE indeed some MJ theories that DO involve conspiracies - I just don't consider them at all plausible and didn't even consider them.

Those "conspiracy theories of MJ" are just 'conspiracy theories' to me
;-)

AcharyaS has some sort of conspiracy theory or two - she talks about some ancient masonic conspiracy, but she also talks about the ancient 'sky people' and the secret culture of the pgymy people ! Which is basically why no-one takes her seriously at all. Her MJ theory is about astrotheology - Jesus = the Sun, 12 apostles = Zodiac etc.

Then there are the Roman conspiracy theories - about the Piso family IIRC. No-one takes that seriously either.

I think there is some other author who argues that Jesus = Caesar IIRC - I think that was some sort of conspiracy. Don't recall. Don't care.

But every time the Mythical Jesus theory comes up, even the MJ theory of Doherty which involves NO conspiracy or lie or hoax - or we can be sure of two responses :

* MJ is just a CONSPIRACY THEORY (so it most be wrong.)

* The stories CANNOT be a lie or hoax (so Jesus must be historical.)

It's the same in every thread on every forum.


K.

 

[Greediguts]

Evidence that demans a verdict
http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Demands-Questions-Challenging-Christians/dp/0785243631
For a similar reason - then follow up with :

Evidence that demands a refund
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/newetdav.html
By seeing these two together, the strength of the HJ argument becomes clear - a used tissue in a hurricane.


K.

Kaypong, the author of Evidence that Demands a Verdict is a Evangelical Christian apologist, not an HJ scholar. Do you feel there is no difference between a scholarly work on HJ and an Christian apologist trying to defend a "historical Christ"?

 

[Ethnikos]

*snip*the author of Evidence that Demands a Verdict is a Evangelical Christian apologist, not an HJ scholar.

He ends up saying that faith is not something one should even feel needs to be defended, against any criticism.

 

[RandFan]

The reason why I think it is most likely that Christ existed is because his teachings are similar to other rabbis at that time. But Jesus was younger and more charismatic. Like Elvis who also did not write any original material, Christ just packaged and presented in a way that was popular.

Not how that points to Christ. Why couldn't scribes misattribute things to him? Thats the consensus of the Jesus Seminar.

I also think Christ existed because Pilot, as I understand, crucified just about anyone who was a threat to his authority. I heard that the Catholics made up the whole "washing of hands" bit and that episode where Pilot made the people decide if Jesus should be killed because the Emperor of Rome was becoming Christian and there was a need to invent a story where the Romans were not as much to blame as the Jews for Jesus' death.

There is no reason to think any of this happened. On the contrary there is lots of evidence to suppose it didn't.

I also think Christ existed because there are bits and pieces in the gospels that sound all to human. For instance, I do not think the myths built up around Jesus are who he really was. Jesus, for example, seemed to believe what people were telling him about being the new King of the their people and the son of God. Jesus seemed to believe that God was going to spare his live via some magic. He cried out "Father, why have you forsaken me" when he was dying. Sounds like a real and desperate dying man to me. I don't think that was made up. If it was, the story would have him saying something else.

Your conclusion doesn't follow. Making up such details is not unprecedented.

I also think Christ existed because if the gospels were made up by a committee, they would have more polish and jive together. Instead, little human faults from different memories and verbally retold stories appear. One gospel has Christ's robe when he was being marched to his death as being red while another says it is purple.

Ehrman points out that the people who first wrote the gospels were not as educated as Jewish writers. There is much evidence for that. You should read Misquoting Jesus.

I like to go with what is more plausable, not what is a conspiracy theory that is entertaining to believe.

Thanks Bill. For me, none of this is compelling. The CT stuff is a straw man, a red herring and it is getting really old.