Okay, convince me Jesus existed.

This is no different from the "Gods of the gaps" claims so oft presented. I do wish you could see how much like DOC you sound with this evidence. As a matter of fact, his NT truthiness thread begins with this exact argument as one of the "Reasons we know the NT writers were telling the truth".


Completely wrong. DOC's claim has to do with details being embarassing and thus fit the narrative, therefor the narrative must be true. The claim Craig and I are discussing has to do with details not even fitting the narrative, and therefor why are they there in the first place?
 
Yet maybe there is a certain bias there - I see Jesus in spiritual terms, and I have had spiritual experiences - far cop.

But I don't actually base my claims on my experiences - they are private and subjective. However - it DOES make me open to the idea that people can see spiritual things as REAL. Paul thought Jesus as REAL - but nothing physical.

Make sense?


K.

Yes thank you for clarifying.

Fredriksen converted from Christianity to Judaism, and still thinks Jesus existed.

Ack! You are 100% correct. She is not an atheist. I don't know what made me think that. I've read her bio before too. My apologies.:o

Pagels is indeed a bit of a maverick - her Gnostic Paul was great. But she still doesn't claim Jesus never existed.

I agree. The Gnostic Paul was a good read. Have you ever read Paul Was Not a Christian by Pamela Eisenbaum? I would be interested to see Pamela's ideas developed in greater detail and discussed.

Consider G.A. Wells - he almost claimed Jesus didn't exist, but draw back from that claim - partly in response to the flack he suffered, surely?

I thought Wells at first claimed Jesus didn't exist, then over the years basically stated there was a higher probability of a "historical Jesus" but we would not be able to know anything of definitve substance about him so it was kind of moot.

JMicism is the 3rd rail of history - no-one will touch it. Even if Pagels, Ehrman, Crossan or Fredriksen did start to wonder about Jesus' historicity, there is enormous consequences of arguing so - not least because they would have to admit being wrong all their careers - who would do that?

Well, Bart Ehrman went from being a born-again Baptist minister thinking the bible was inerrant to an agnostic writing about all of the mistakes in the bible. That is quite a change, yes? He is in a position now that if he stated "Jesus was a myth" he would sell a ton of books (on top of the first ton he sold:D).

Many people leave the priesthood true, but how many go on to study, lecture, and publish an idea that stabs at the heart of Christianity as most see it (Jesus was not divine and was not resurrected). Crossan did this. Is that better or worse than just saying "Jesus was a myth"? The HJ or MJ theories are both problematic for organized Christian religions.

Look at it another way :
How many Hindu scholars argue Krishna didn't exist?
How many Buddhist scholars argue Buddha didn't exist?
None.
I will take you on your word as I have no real knowledge of Hindu/Buddhist scholars.:)

I think that pressure or bias is obvious, although I may have overstated its strength.

How would YOU rate the strength of that pressure?
Certainly not zero?


K.

The biggest bias I have come across (and I would apply this mostly to the early attempts in the quest for HJ, but easily applies to Crossan today) when reading HJ texts is how authors seem to put what they consider to be the best qualities a human could possess into their HJ. They always find the HJ that they are looking for. Over the years, as the quest began to use historical-critical methods, the push to place Jesus back into his historical context (that of a 1st century Jew) helped start removing this bias (although it still rears its ugly head).

I would not know how to rate the pressure you speak of. If a scholar feels that type of pressure how much is actually coming from academia and how much is just a personal struggle of faith? How could we tell?

Gday,



Hmmm,
that's interesting - can you perhaps give me some details to follow up there? Can you cite a few Jewish authors who argued Jesus didn't exist?



My notes include (for early 20th century) :
  • M.M. Mangasarian, 1909, The Truth About Jesus ? Is He a Myth?
  • Arthur Drews, 1910, The Christ Myth
  • John M. Robertson, 1917, The Jesus Problem
  • Georg Brandes, 1926, Jesus – A Myth
  • Joseph Wheless, 1930, Forgery in Christianity
  • L.Gordon Rylands, 1935, Did Jesus Ever Live?
  • Edouard Dujardin, 1938, Ancient History of the God Jesus
  • P.L. Couchoud, 1939, The Creation of Christ
K.

I'm going to have to shoot an e-mail off to my New Testament Professor from last semester. I'll try to get some details and sources that we can look into, ok? She and I had a brief conversation about HJ scholarship in the Jewish community. My recollection is the predominant feeling in Jewish circles was Jesus didn't exist. Historically Jews did not engage in exegesis of Christian scripture or write books talking about Jesus as they feared backlash from Christians. So lack of books or articles supporting HJ or MJ in the early years might be explained best by fear rather than a dominant view supporting one theory over the other.
 
BobTheDonkey

And, contrariwise, I don't argue from the certainty that Achilles never had talking horses, that the Trojan War is entirely fictional.

Voltaire makes a similar point in this context. We don't conclude from the dove bringing the phial of heavenly oil to his coronation, as reported by the chroniclers, that Clovis was never king of the Franks.

But that's not the same thing as an absolute insistence on Jesus' historicity, of course. He may indeed be entirely fictional, and so may be the Trojan War.
 
BobTheDonkey

And, contrariwise, I don't argue from the certainty that Achilles never had talking horses, that the Trojan War is entirely fictional.

Voltaire makes a similar point in this context. We don't conclude from the dove bringing the phial of heavenly oil to his coronation, as reported by the chroniclers, that Clovis was never king of the Franks.

But that's not the same thing as an absolute insistence on Jesus' historicity, of course. He may indeed be entirely fictional, and so may be the Trojan War.
No, but you would be a fool to use the argument that because Hercules cleaned a stable, and that stable was found to exist (or was reputed to have existed by other people), that Hercules was a real person.

Note that I haven't made the claim that the claims of Jesus' brother is somehow evidence that Jesus didn't exist. Rather, I presented a plausible explanation for why this particular "inconvenient" fact may have been included.
 
Completely wrong. DOC's claim has to do with details being embarassing and thus fit the narrative, therefor the narrative must be true. The claim Craig and I are discussing has to do with details not even fitting the narrative, and therefor why are they there in the first place?

You've claimed that before, and you're still wrong.

This is no different than what DOC does - it's special pleading, mixed with a lot of assertion and incredulity.

"The writers would not have included these details if Jesus wasn't a real person because they are inconvenient" is the same, whether it's because those details are embarrassing or merely inconvenient. This is an argument that is a fallback and is based entirely on incredulity:

"I can't imagine any other reason that these specific details would have been included except that Jesus was a real person."

On their own, embarrassing and inconvenient details about Jesus do not provide evidence of Jesus existence.
 
I think we are supposed to believe what is the most probable, not what is possible. I guess it is possible that Christ never existed. So you believe he did not exist because it is possible that he did not exist? That is not good enough. If you believe he did not exist because it is more ethical to believe he did not exist, then you are no different than other people who believe or have faith in things who use ethics alone to decide what is real and what is not.

how does it feel to believe in a lie?
 
You've claimed that before, and you're still wrong.

This is no different than what DOC does - it's special pleading, mixed with a lot of assertion and incredulity.

"The writers would not have included these details if Jesus wasn't a real person because they are inconvenient" is the same, whether it's because those details are embarrassing or merely inconvenient. This is an argument that is a fallback and is based entirely on incredulity:

"I can't imagine any other reason that these specific details would have been included except that Jesus was a real person."

On their own, embarrassing and inconvenient details about Jesus do not provide evidence of Jesus existence.

What about when these inconvenient details inadvertantly contradict the narrative itself?

The Messiah was prophecied to come from David's City, not Galilee. The obvious fake nativity stories reveal the need the early story tellers had to make an earlier mismatched tradition fit into their OT Prophecy Cult.

Why would God need a Baptist? The tradition associating Jesus with John the Baptist morphs over time from a student Jesus being blessed by an acknowledged Authority, To the Baptist humbling himself and proclaiming Jesus Lord God Almighty, Galactic Overlord and Sherriff of Dodge City.

There are other ones and better scholars than me here, my Brain hurts...
 
BobTheDonkey

... and that stable was found to exist

Well they found a stable in Bethlehem, as Justin Martyr and Constantine's mom can testify. So there!

Maybe I should put in a couple of these. :)
 
What about when these inconvenient details inadvertantly contradict the narrative itself?

The Messiah was prophecied to come from David's City, not Galilee. The obvious fake nativity stories reveal the need the early story tellers had to make an earlier mismatched tradition fit into their OT Prophecy Cult.

Why would God need a Baptist? The tradition associating Jesus with John the Baptist morphs over time from a student Jesus being blessed by an acknowledged Authority, To the Baptist humbling himself and proclaiming Jesus Lord God Almighty, Galactic Overlord and Sherriff of Dodge City.

There are other ones and better scholars than me here, my Brain hurts...
Council of Nicea.
 
Hans

It is possible to recruit authentic material into literary device. Thus, poetic treatment of a historical theme doesn't necessarily imply totally imaginary history. Are there literary devices in Homer? Was there ever a Trojan War?

1. But was there ever an Achilles? Well, probably nope. (Even the name is not a Greek name, but basically a literary role description.) Was there ever a king Agamemnon? How would Homer even know of him? Was there an actual Odysseus?

2. Occam's Razor. Between an explanation with one entity, and an explanation with two entities, take the former, unless you actually have evidence that requires the latter. If its being used in an allegory explains the presence of an incident well enough, then you don't need an explanation which requires BOTH that AND a historical incident that incidentally is an allegory and foreshadow. Unless you actually have evidence that requires the latter, that is.

3. Most people's lives don't follow such neat narratives. You'd be hard pressed to find many real people whose lives even follow a rough monomyth at all, much less involve half a dozen foreshadows for every major event, and where whole events are neatly arranged to form a layer cake of nested allegories, half a dozen levels deep. When a narrative of someone's life ends up being composed of such, that's usually a hint that some creative rewriting has happened. Which leads us to:

4. How would you know which parts, in the absence of other evidence? How would you know which allegories are freak cases of actual events that are also allegorical, and which are just made up?

5. Most importantly because it makes the following false:

Surely, too, the principle of inconvenience still applies.

No. If the whole incident serves to make a point that the author wants made, then there is no inconvenience.

Nevertheless, if there is a historical basis, however slight, surely it is to be found in these inconvenient locations.

Not really, or not necessarily.

The criterion of embarrassment is actually used to guess which of two versions of the same story is earlier, and which is later, not to determine which parts are real. E.g., if you find two versions of a gospel, say, one where Jesus shows compassion to some sick person who touches his robe to get healed, and one where Jesus gets angry at the sick person for touching him, the heuristic guess is that the less pleasant version is earlier.

The idea is that as the manuscripts would get copied again and again and again and again [...] some scribe would notice that some details aren't all that popular or convenient, and change them to something more palatable. In the process of copying, the rougher edges and kinks were also eventually ironed out. So when you find a version with more kinks, chances are it's earlier.

But it's not really a criterion for finding historical truth. An earlier version can have those quirks simply because the author wanted it that way, or his particular audience liked it that way.

Think the various versions of Little Red Riding Hood, or Hansel And Grettel, or various other children's stories. Earlier versions were a lot nastier. E.g., LRRH is killed and stayed dead even in the relatively late Perault version, and even earlier versions have even more gruesome stuff like the girl being fed pieces of her dead grandma. Yeah, nasty stuff. E.g., even in the first Brothers Grimm version, H&G were getting the crap end of the stick from their biological mother, not from an evil stepmother, and there are indications that in even earlier versions, the evil witch was also their mother. But as time goes by and the story has to appeal to larger audiences, the versions of the story become increasingly toned down, and the nasty parts get increasingly ironed out. So if you find a nastier version of them, an educated guess is that it's earlier than a nicer version with more mass-appeal.

But it's not a real indication that there was a real LRRH, or that certain events in her life are historical.

Or take Odysseus, since you brought that epic in as an example. Odysseus's behaviour, like pretending to be crazy to avoid honouring an alliance, or coming up with cunning stuff like the Trojan horse, were extreme negative traits for the Romans. The Roman ideas of honour and valour were much more strict, and for example alliances had to be honoured at any cost. About a millennium of Roman theatre, poetry and novels have been dedicated just to vilifying Odysseus and his treacherous behaviour.

So, can we apply the embarrassment criterion to find historical stuff there? Not really, because for the Greeks it wasn't embarrassing at all. Winning wars by cunning or avoiding wars by cunning, were actually positive traits for the Greeks, unlike for the Romans later. There was no embarrassment.

What we can however say is that the story is earlier than the people in Rome who were annoyed by it. But then we knew that already for Homer.
 
Jesus exist I believe his mother goes by the name Mary...he comes around once a week to mow the law, very pleasant chap.

Concerning the bible Jesus, found within the bible there is his detailed linage. I guess to prove he exist will be easy. ...Check out ancestry.com, there are other sites too.
 
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I believe that a man who inspired "Jesus Christ" probably existed before the rise of christianity, he was known as Joshua of Panthera, or Joshua of Nazareth. You can research his story if you would like. But I'll just give you the low down.

Joshua of Panthera was born of a woman who was bound to marry a man called Joseph, this woman called Mary, had an affair with a Roman soldier before she was destined to marry. Joseph who found out about this grew angry but did not want to see Mary stoned to death (as is still in practice today by religious fundies) and so agreed not to turn her in. Mary then fled to Egypt taking her new born son Joshua with her.

Of course another likely story is that, the Romans were trying to breed out the Jews in Israel by making half Roman and half Jewish citizens, and when the King of Israel sent his soldiers to kill off the newborn children at the time of Joshua's birth this may have been why Mary fled as well, although it would mean that she didn't have an affair at all. Or at least probably not.

Anyways the ending is all the same, Joshua returned to Israel with his mother when he grew older and they lived in a town called Nazareth, where he began to study and preach about the Torah having also picked up some religious influences in Egypt (where is likely where he got the idea of a loving and caring god and that we are all his children). When people grew interested in his opinions and began to flock to him, this is where his role as a 'prophet/messiah' became real to the people. Eventually Joshua likely told his apostles (the closest of his followers) of his true origins and that he was half Roman and half Jewish. Judas did not take to kindly to this and told the pharisees that this Joshua guy was a fraud. (even though Joshua himself never claimed to be the son of god but let people choose to believe as they willed).

Upon his arrest, it was made known who his real father was, and the crowd that followed him turned against him, very few apostles remained at his side. Although they couldn't kill him for that reason, so they made another reason and that is he claimed to be the living embodiment of a god (at the time only the emporer of Rome could be viewed as such thus making it illegal) and demanded the gaurds to do away with him. Pontious Pilate who knew the true nature behind their request washed his hands before condemning Joshua and even tried to get them to spare his life by having him scourged at the pillar, to no avail though, they still wanted him crucified.

And so Joshua, after living a life about preaching love, understanding, and equality was brought to death for having no fault of his own, about who his real father was.

Sad story, but if a man like Jesus did exist, it would have been Joshua of Panthera.
 
HansMustermann

The criterion of embarrassment is actually used to guess which of two versions of the same story is earlier, and which is later, not to determine which parts are real.
Surely, however, if an earlier source disagrees with a later one, it is more likely that the earlier source is better. NOT that is is NECESSARILY authentic, I stress.This is the same principle as that by which earlier manuscripts are preferred - a scribe is more likely to introduce an error than to correct one, there being very many more possible wrong ways than right ways (one), of copying a text.

Is this not the principle invoked by the editors of the NIV version of Mark 16? See
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 16&version=NIV where it is noted that "The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20." and these verses duly rejected. What is wrong with that criterion? For if the earliest manuscripts had had them, and the later ones not, we would be inclined to say that they had been abandoned as "embarrassing", for indeed the snake-brandishing, poison-quaffing, demon-exorcising, hellzapoppin followers of Jesus alluded to therein would embarrass any sane person, believer or not. So we would still prefer the earlier text.

May we look at mythical figures whom we know to have existed, but around whose names all manner of absurd stories have assembled? Alexander the Great is one example; another is the mediaeval Scottish personality William Wallace. We have contemporary documentary evidence for him, doing entirely rational and natural things, like sending out (surviving) letters in an attempt to restore Scotland's foreign trade:
Andrew of Moray and William Wallace, leaders of the Scottish army, and the community of the same kingdom, send to the prudent and discreet men, our good friends, the nobles and the commoners of Luebeck and of Hamburg, greetings ...
But very quickly we get swamped with rubbish, much of it regurgitated in Mel Gibson's "Braveheart". See
http://www.braveheart.co.uk/macbrave/history/wallace/ewart.htm
When around 1478 Wallace is created (or collated) by Henry the Minstrel, often called Blind Harry; we have possibly the most influential long poem ever written in Scots. And here we are most definitely in the realm of powerful and deliberate myth-making. Professor Cowan writes of "borrowings plunderings, plagerisms (sic), inventions, and fancies"
In the early modern era, Blind Harry's huge poem was the country's most widely-read book, with the exception of the Bible. Evidently, it "met a need". But commentators note that
Of the narrative sources, the near-contemporary Chronicle of Walter of Guisborough is much to be preferred. ... Blind Harry's Wallace is, however, of little value, as it imputes to Wallace much of the itinerary of Bruce's invasion of Yorkshire in 1322.
And much more nonsense besides. Gibson duly has Wallace attacking York. See http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/mcnamee1.htm .

Is it not then rational, having identified a text as earlier, to prefer it; particularly if its contents are more plausible than those in later sources? E.g. insane preacher with brothers, as against son of the Holy Ghost sprung from the womb of a virgin. This preference should apply even when there is no contemporary historical evidence for the existence of the character portrayed. Brainache makes the same point with his progressive "morphing" of John the Baptist, noted by very many commentators. Literary device or not, the principle is a valid one, it seems to me.
 
Surely, however, if an earlier source disagrees with a later one, it is more likely that the earlier source is better. NOT that is is NECESSARILY authentic, I stress.This is the same principle as that by which earlier manuscripts are preferred - a scribe is more likely to introduce an error than to correct one, there being very many more possible wrong ways than right ways (one), of copying a text.
In his book Misquoting Jesus, Bart Ehrman gives some examples of why sometimes we have good reason to mistrust some earlier sources. If that weren't the case scholars wouldn't agonize over anything. They would always defer to the earliest source.
 
By the way, I am not a Biblical Fundamentalist. I am not saying anyone here in this discussion thread thinks so. In fact, I think people here are much too smart to assume that. This is not the case in other discussion threads.

I think RandiFan believes that Christ never existed as a matter of principal.

I think the idea that Jesus never existed does not pass the Dr. Sagan Baloney detection kit. I think that it is not good enough to say "this widely accepted idea is a lie". One has to come up with an alternative theory and that alternative theory has to explain away every thing that the current theory explains. In this case we have lots. For example, did Paul exist? If not did any of the earlier bishops of Rome exist? Did Thomas exist? Did any of the original 12 exist? What about the other earlier leaders of the Christian churches in other parts of the worlds?

Ever hear "Won't get fooled Again?"


I think that if you choose to believe something as a matter of principal, then you are doing exactly what the other dolts of other theologies do. Mormons believe things because they think doing so is ethical. So do Muslims. So do Scientologist's. Now, so do Atheists.

On the other hand, I admit, I have not read any theories that explain Christianity without Jesus. But if it was true, why now? Why is it now that this theory has come to light? Why doesn't it come from the priests who would blow the whistle because they could not live a lie anymore? And why not at least one thousand years ago?

Why didn't the jews come up with this idea if it is true? If you go to a convention of international astronauts and cosmonauts and as a russian about the Apollo hoax idea, he will say that if that conspiracy theory is true, the Russians would know and blow the whistle.
 
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HansMustermann

The criterion of embarrassment is actually used to guess which of two versions of the same story is earlier, and which is later, not to determine which parts are real.
Surely, however, if an earlier source disagrees with a later one, it is more likely that the earlier source is better. NOT that is is NECESSARILY authentic, I stress.This is the same principle as that by which earlier manuscripts are preferred - a scribe is more likely to introduce an error than to correct one, there being very many more possible wrong ways than right ways (one), of copying a text.

Is this not the principle invoked by the editors of the NIV version of Mark 16? See
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 16&version=NIV where it is noted that "The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20." and these verses duly rejected. What is wrong with that criterion? For if the earliest manuscripts had had them, and the later ones not, we would be inclined to say that they had been abandoned as "embarrassing", for indeed the snake-brandishing, poison-quaffing, demon-exorcising, hellzapoppin followers of Jesus alluded to therein would embarrass any sane person, believer or not. So we would still prefer the earlier text.

May we look at mythical figures whom we know to have existed, but around whose names all manner of absurd stories have assembled? Alexander the Great is one example; another is the mediaeval Scottish personality William Wallace. We have contemporary documentary evidence for him, doing entirely rational and natural things, like sending out (surviving) letters in an attempt to restore Scotland's foreign trade:
Andrew of Moray and William Wallace, leaders of the Scottish army, and the community of the same kingdom, send to the prudent and discreet men, our good friends, the nobles and the commoners of Luebeck and of Hamburg, greetings ...
But very quickly we get swamped with rubbish, much of it regurgitated in Mel Gibson's "Braveheart". See
http://www.braveheart.co.uk/macbrave/history/wallace/ewart.htm
When around 1478 Wallace is created (or collated) by Henry the Minstrel, often called Blind Harry; we have possibly the most influential long poem ever written in Scots. And here we are most definitely in the realm of powerful and deliberate myth-making. Professor Cowan writes of "borrowings plunderings, plagerisms (sic), inventions, and fancies"
In the early modern era, Blind Harry's huge poem was the country's most widely-read book, with the exception of the Bible. Evidently, it "met a need". But commentators note that
Of the narrative sources, the near-contemporary Chronicle of Walter of Guisborough is much to be preferred. ... Blind Harry's Wallace is, however, of little value, as it imputes to Wallace much of the itinerary of Bruce's invasion of Yorkshire in 1322.
And much more nonsense besides. Gibson duly has Wallace attacking York. See http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/mcnamee1.htm .

Is it not then rational, having identified a text as earlier, to prefer it; particularly if its contents are more plausible than those in later sources? E.g. insane preacher with brothers, as against son of the Holy Ghost sprung from the womb of a virgin. This preference should apply even when there is no contemporary historical evidence for the existence of the character portrayed. Brainache makes the same point with his progressive "morphing" of John the Baptist, noted by very many commentators. Literary device or not, the principle is a valid one, it seems to me.
 
By the way, I am not a Biblical Fundamentalist. I am not saying anyone here in this discussion thread thinks so. In fact, I think people here are much too smart to assume that. This is not the case in other discussion threads.

I think RandiFan believes that Christ never existed as a matter of principal.I think the idea that Jesus never existed does not pass the Dr. Sagan Baloney detection kit. I think that it is not good enough to say "this widely accepted idea is a lie". One has to come up with an alternative theory and that alternative theory has to explain away every thing that the current theory explains. In this case we have lots. For example, did Paul exist? If not did any of the earlier bishops of Rome exist? Did Thomas exist? Did any of the original 12 exist? What about the other earlier leaders of the Christian churches in other parts of the worlds?

Ever hear "Won't get fooled Again?"


I think that if you choose to believe something as a matter of principal, then you are doing exactly what the other dolts of other theologies do. Mormons believe things because they think doing so is ethical. So do Muslims. So do Scientologist's. Now, so do Atheists.

On the other hand, I admit, I have not read any theories that explain Christianity without Jesus. But if it was true, why now? Why is it now that this theory has come to light? Why doesn't it come from the priests who would blow the whistle because they could not live a lie anymore? And why not at least one thousand years ago?

Why didn't the jews come up with this idea if it is true? If you go to a convention of international astronauts and cosmonauts and as a russian about the Apollo hoax idea, he will say that if that conspiracy theory is true, the Russians would know and blow the whistle.


I think that "I think" isn't much of an argument.
 
Sorry my last post seems to have gone in twice. Please read it only once - if at all. I'm at the moment in the mountains of central Italy, and connection is intermittent and undependable.
 

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